Vodou and the superuniverses

Post Reply
User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2152
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:03 pm

Vodou and the superuniverses

Post by admin » Fri Aug 29, 2003 11:08 am


Gifrants,

Your reflexions do not appear to be directed to the uninitated and sometimes sound plainly dogmatic. To boot:

[quote]As a Ginen, and as a Human God, I have been taught that everything happened for a reason.[/quote]

What makes you a Ginen? What makes you a Human God? I have no reason to believe that you are in essence a different being than I am. Therefore, I am curious to know what has elevated you to the status of a Ginen, of a Human God? Can you explain it or is it a divine secret?

[quote]Let me add for you that the Lwa are much closer in their blood line to the White race than they are to us.[/quote]

Again without so much as one word of explanation, you have stated something from way out of left field: "The Lwa are much closer in their blood line to the White race than they are to us." I know next to nothing about Vodou, but I am concerned about thinking processes, myth making, and rationalization. Your grandiose pronouncements (a few others will follow) are beginning to sound very much alike to the doctrine of infallibility of Catholic popes (see, right on this forum, Karen Armstrong's excellent article entitled "Loyalty to the Church vs. the Quest for Truth: A retreat from God _ When loyalty to the Catholic church is placed above the quest for truth it debases religion").

"The Lwa are much closer in their blood line to the White race than they are to us," you stated. Is this part of the dogma of the Vodou you know, which appears to be radically different from the Vodou that Ezili Danto is writing about? Is Ezili Danto a Human Goddess? Am I, Guy Antoine, a Human God? No, let me stop right here. This is a tempting proposition, but I must take time to swallow the pills the doctor prescribed for my various ailments.

In 1950, almost twenty centuries after the death of Jesus's mother, a pope in Rome augmented the dogma about Mary's virgin birth (something alluded to by only one of the four evangelists) by declaring that Mary did not die like an ordinary human being; that in fact, her body was elevated to Heaven (the Central Isle of Paradise?) There were no witnesses, but through the ages, the "assumption" somehow became a legend among the Virgin Mary's worshippers. In 1950 that legend became part of the official dogma of the Catholic Church, to which all Catholics ought to subscribe to be spared the infamous retribution of ex-communication. Today, I am confronted with extraordinary statements about Vodou, which do not appear to offer any greater foundation than the myth making machine of the Catholic Church. It all appears to summarize neatly as follows: "This is so, because I declare it to be so."

By the way, what is the relationship between the Virgin Mary, the various Madonnas, and the four Ezili's? What is the fundamental difference between the Saints and the Lwa? In the Catholic Church, the overwhelming majority of saints are Caucasian. Is this why, perhaps, you state that "the Lwa are much closer in their blood line to the White race than they are to us"? Just wondering...

[quote]My 1,111 Older Brothers have been tested by the rebellion of Satan. No one can seduce them. I duly rely on them to enlighten my brothers and sisters on behalf of our Father and Creator, Michael of Nebadon, and to strengthen the faith of those whose final destination is the Central Isle of Paradise.[/quote]

Wait... Are those teachings that cannot be written about in an explanatory manner? Are all those pronouncements to be stated "point barre", take it or leave it? Do they constitute the bits of a faith [we seem to have reached a consensus on this forum that Vodou is not a religion... Ezili Danto tells us that it is more than a religion, Gifrants tells us that it is less], a faith that is so personalized that it all comes down to "the Vodou that I know".

I hope that no one gets offended by my remarks. Faith and rationality rarely walk hand in hand. However, this is a forum for discussion. It is generally not helpful to make statements shrouded in mystery and not provide any semblance of reason for them whatsoever. Good for the soul? Maybe. Still the unfortunate but well-travelled road to dogmatic smoke screens is not helpful in any way to anyone who does not know "the Vodou that you know".

Gifrants

Some answers to Guy's questions

Post by Gifrants » Sat Aug 30, 2003 2:05 pm

Guy,

I'm more than happy to answer your questions. But, before I do, I reiterate my will not to impose on anybody my belief, my knowledge, my interpretations, my conviction on spiritualism.

What makes me a Ginen?

I was born in a family of Ginen. The zanj Ginen maintain a family tradition making the oldest or the youngest member of a family the heir or the heiress of spiritual knowledge. My mom is the oldest child of her parents, and I'm the oldest child of my Mom. It is what we call in French--le droit d'ainesse.

As a kid, while I wanted to be a priest, I never questioned the vodou ceremonies that would take place at home or in our lakou. The reason was simple. My grand father was a very intelligent man, one among the most famous lawyers in Haiti. He cannot possibly be stupid on this matter. I also said to myself that one person can be wrong, but not a whole civilization. There must be something in Vodou that is credible.

I was baptized by a very powerful Ginen, himself. He handed me the keys of the house where we keep our oratory, and I was told of my degree--my initiatic level.

What makes me a Human God?

Jean 10 verset 34--Jesus leur repondit--N'est-il pas ecrit dans votre loi--J'ai dit que vous etes des dieux?

Every human being is a God. We are learning our way to divinity. I respect the choice of those who dedicate their lives to their 9 to 5, to what they can see and touch. That's their right and their privilege.

The Lwa are much closer in their blood line to the white race than they are to us.

It is a long story. Let me try to make it short.

Adam and Eve are the Material Sons of God. They were created by Jesus Christ or Michael of Nebadon. They lived on Edentia before they came down to Urantia, our planet. Their mission was to enhance both spiritually and physically the races of Urantia. They are brother and sister. But they can mate. Eve could give birth painlessly every 70 days. Their first son was Adamson.

It was Adamson who met one female of the offspring of the 50 Guards of Caligastia. They mated and each fourth child of their offspring could appear and disappear, and was immortal. They could use the energy circuit of Satania. They are the Primary Midwayers.

Those Primary Midwayers mated among themselves and gave birth to the Secondary Midwayers who are the Lwa, the Ginen, and the Zanj in Vodou. Zanj ki zanj poze. One day of every year, the Lwa get together outside of the planet on the North Pole, and replenish their energy.

Regarding the white race, let me only that John Ashcroft was right when he said he was proud of his Adamic heritage. Let me say also that Hitler knew about the roots of the White race. The divine truth is no human being is the child of a lesser God.

What is the relationship between the Virgin, the various Madonnas and the four Erzilis?

None in personality whatsoever. We do know that our ancestors wanted to fool their masters by keeping the pictures of those saints as if they were truly observing the catholic teaching. I believe that is a great deviation in Vodou not as a religion, but as a spiritual sect. My faith and determination of searching for the truth, life and the way has allowed me to go beyond this. And I repeat again--I have never asked for health, protection, money or power. I always knew deeply down that the best way for me to be with God is to know who I am. There should be no surprise to anybody who comes to my house to see no picture of Saints, or Lwa, no Veve, nothing. There would be days when I strongly sensed the visit of one of my Older Brothers, that a white cup or bowl will be on my bedroom table. There is nothing superstitious about that. There is water on Havona. Water is a symbol of purification. Even our Creator Father Jesus Christ has been baptized with water.

My 1,111 Older brothers have been tested by the rebellion of Satan. The Secondary Midwayers were around 50, 000. Only 1,111 survived the rebellion of Satan. You do not have to believe me. It is one of those things that sounds too strange. Let's forget about it. God's existence has been put in question so many times. This is nothing new.

Faith and rationality rarely walk hand in hand.

Jean 1, verset 18--Personne n'a jamais vu Dieu. Le Fils Unique qui est dans le sein du Pere est celui qui l'a fait connaitre.

That was Satan's problem--Nobody has seen God. Then, there must be a conspiracy in the Central Isle of Paradise. It shall and will remain like this, my man. You cannot rationalize God. However from his different attributes such as the self-deitization of God the Supreme, that is currently happening, God the Absolute and God the Ultimate, we may have an understanting of His Being.

The fact that we Haitians did not evolve and are not evolving well enough to allow the Lwa to open up the door much wider does not mean at all that Vodoo does not and cannot grasp such notions. I do not believe one second I could have gotten so far in my search without the Ginen. It may be my personal experience, but I do not believe either it has to be unique...

User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2152
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:03 pm

Vodou and Urantia

Post by admin » Mon Sep 01, 2003 10:35 pm

Gifrants,

Thank you very much for, it must be said, your rather very obscure introduction to the concepts developed in the Urantia Papers, to be found in THE URANTIA BOOK. On this forum, you had often referred to the seven superuniverses and quite a few times to our Father and Creator "Michael de Nebadon". Franchman jiskaprezan mwen te bwè pwa... mwen pa te konnen de ki sa ou t ap pale ditou. More recently, you talked of the "1,111 Older Brothers" and the "Central Isle of Paradise". I still had no clue... but thank God I am persistent (who is the god of persistence, by the way? It has taken hold of me in ways that have been very detrimental to my well-being. Oh, anti-god of persistence, answer my prayers!)

A long time ago, on this forum (well, a previous version of it, anyhow) you wrote:

[quote]Jezikri se non Pèkreyatè nou sou latè bèni kote li te vinn fè setyèm reyenkanasyon li. Lòt 6 reyenkanasyon yo te fèt lòt kote nan inivè lokal ke limenn li te kreye avèk pèmisyon papa li, Dye lepè. E m-ap reyafime-w ankò ke Jezikiri pa Dyelefis, e bon non li se Mikayèl de Nebadon.[/quote]

... when another forum participant asked you to elucidate your comments, you replied:

[quote]Depi la Pannkot, lèspri de Verite Jezikri oubyen ankò lèspri de Verite de Mikayèl de Nebadon gaye sou tout latè, e disponib pou tout kretyen vivan k-ap chèche limyè. Prye, frè an-we, prye. Chèche, w-a twouve, men sonje chèche ak la fwa.[/quote]

Those comments had ALWAYS intrigued me. I retrieved them by the way, by using the search facility of Fowòm Ayisyen. And now two and a half years after those original comments, we are finally beginning to close the circle.

"Chèche, w-a twouve... ak la fwa" but thank God for Google!

It was not until your last post when you talked of:
  • Edentia [/*:m]
  • Havona [/*:m]
  • Urantia [/*:m]
  • Caligastia [/*:m]
  • Satania [/*:m]
in addition to
  • The Primary Midwayers [/*:m]
  • The Secondary Midwayers [/*:m]
  • Adam and Eve and their first son, Adamson,[/*:m]
that I had finally a wealth of key-words to do some serious searching on the Internet. And what a treasure trove of information I found on a mythology I knew absolutely nothing about. Boy, did I do a lot of reading today! Let me share some of my findings here with whomever might be interested. Here are just a very few of the links that you can go to: and what looks like a related but very odd, very political, and very opinionated site: http://www.planetaryhq.com : Planetary Headquarters, Home to Caligastia, which contains some rather incredible articles of side interest such as "A Message To Black America".

I have now read a lot about this mythology, previously unknown to me. I find it extraordinarily imaginative. Of course, to some it's a matter of faith and I respect everyone's right to subscribe to any mythology they wish. However, I have not yet found the links between the Secondary Midwayers and Vodou's spiritual entities, which you so emphatically proclaim. Must I keep reading more of "The Urantia Book" to discover them? Are they the fruit of your spiritual journey of discovery, a journey so personal that it must remain forever more shrouded in mystery? To put it simply, where in the good book is the connection between Vodou and Urantia, between the Lwa and Michael of Nebadon?

By the way, so many biblical stories have appeared in film... and given the huge success of "The Lord of the Rings", has anyone thought of scripting The Urantia Papers and make a movie or would this be considered too irreverent? Just wondering...

Gifrants

Post by Gifrants » Wed Sep 03, 2003 10:31 am

Guy,

I have been always afraid to teach. I've been playing the guitar for more than 30 years. Every time, I've been approached by someone, my answer has always been the same.

If someone wants to learn from me, it will be only for a short term, and that person needs to show me really he or she wants to learn.

The Urantia book will be our bible on this planet. I've been guided slowly to understand what most people would not. It's not because they cannot learn, it's because they have made their choice to do whatever they want with their lives.

I do not have the credentials to teach anyone about Vodou. I do not intend to teach anyone about Vodou. That has been always the major problem of anybody who knows what most people do not know. Imagine how many people died and are still dying today because they think differently.

When Jesus said that his kingdom was in the Heavens, the rabbis laughed at him. They knew hi
s father and his mother. When he said that he was the Son of God, some rabbis tore their toga. They called his words blasphemy. One of them even said that he knew the laws of God. If God wanted to send the Messiah, the Messiah would be born among his children.

I'm not in the business of convincing anyone. I'm going to give you a few examples that may relate the Midwayers to the Lwa we are referring in Vodou. The last one is personal. But, I will tell you anyway.
  • 3 Fey 3 Rasin o
    Jete blye, ranmase sonje
    3 Fey 3 Rasin o
    Jete blye, ranmanse sonje
    Mwen gen yon basen dlo
    3 Fey tonbe ladan
    Jete blye, ranmase sonje

    3 Fey--God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. The ones who disagree, have rejected them and forgotten. The ones who believe, have not forgotten I'm alive--Water is the symbol of life and purification.

    Those 3 Gods are part of my life. The ones you disagree, have rejected them and forgotten. The ones who believe,
    have not forgotten.

    Sa se langaj daki. Who do you think wrote this song? And why? and when?

    This song has been written by people who have lived a major struggle. Our lwa, Ginen and Lesen because they sing this song have lived it.
    [/*:m]
  • 21 degre. What does that mean in Vodou? Yon moun sevi 21 Lesen.

    Se langaj daki. The lwa are trying to convey mysteries to us. 21 is exactly the number of Ancient of Days throughout the 7 superuniverses--3 for each superuniverse and they are the first to be listed on the records of the Central Isle of Paradise. Anything one does not know is a mystery. Once you know, it's no longer a mystery.
    [/*:m]
  • Zan ki zan poze. Once in a year, the Midwayers gather outside of this planet, at the Pole North, to replete their energy. The Satania energy circuit has been made available for them to sustain their immortality.
    [/*:m]
  • I was about 7 years old, when I heard Ogou Balendjo saying to my grandmother-- Mwen se ofelen, manman m mouri, papan m mouri. Both Adamson and his wife died. However the children who became the Primary Midwayers, and the Secondary Midwayers are still alive. The Primary Midwayers are working with the legion of Archangels who are on this planet. The only planet who is benefiting of their presence because Jesus said he would be back. The Secondary Midwayers are working with us, being the link between any superior beings and us--for translation and to facilitate understanding.[/*:m]
Like most of us, who are still looking for the way, the light and life, I'm being guided.

As I said, I'm not in the business here to convince anyone. To those who believe so much in Vodou, all they have to do is ASK. Why don't ask Ti Jan, Papa Pye, Erzili Freda, Erzili Danto, Ogou Feray, Ogou Baguidy, Marasa, Gede Nibo, why don't you ask who the hell they are? I did, why don't you?

I told you I was baptized by one of them. I told you that I'm a Ginen. Do you think I'm lying to you? Did you ever think about who they are? How do they live? Now, if they do not tell you, they do not even pay attention to your questions, would you say I'm still lying, or maybe, you are not really serious about your faith?

Spiritualism has nothing to do with intellectualism. I'm not going to say he following because I want to judge anyone spiritually. Go to your archives, and look, for I did ask:

Where are the vodou believers? Where are the masons?
Where are the Rose Cross? Where are the Martinists?
Where are those intellectuals bragging about their books and their degree in our mess in Haiti?
Who was Aristide? He was a priest. Imagine how many times he
drank on the altar the blood of Jesus? for what? To do what he is doing now?

Most Haitian brag about being part of a spiritual sect. I heard their comments. They are very snob about their siyo, reset, senbol. Anfen, anfen, se pa ni yonn ni de. Saki mason, rozikrizyen e matinis, e vodouizan a lafwa. Sak gen la?

How are you going to disagree because you do not understand? No one can really understand God? Why then they believe?

For us who are still looking, faith has helped understand. A man with no faith is a blind man.

Let me tell you this again. if it were not for the Ginen, I would have never known what I know now. You have no idea how far I've gone. It is not only about an adventure, Guy. It is all about God, Faith, and Eternity.

Next time, you meet Ti Jan in a Vodou ceremony. Tell him I say Hi. Nou piti men nou la. Nou bite, men nou pa tonbe. Van gwonde pi mal pase siklonn, men chandel la pa tenyen. Si li pa reponn w, ajoute tou senpleman--komision pa chaj.

Ginen yo se Midwayers yo. Se kontak direk yo ye. Se pa pou granmesi tout namchon, espesyalman Blan yo ak siveye Ayiti konsa, e kenbe Ayisyen anba yon eto sovaj. Eseye panse selman ki kote Ayiti ak Ayisyen ka ye si yo te louvri non selman ke yo men lespri yo tou?

Mwen se Ayisyen, w se Ayisyen. Tankou mwen menn le m te tou piti, mwen pa te panse ke granparan wen se te moun sot paske yo te pratike vodou, mwen ka swete w panse tou, malgre tout vye palab ki fet sou fowom lan, mwen pa yon nonm sot ase pou tonbe nan tchouboum sa.

Eseye konprann avan w kritike. Si w pa ka konprann, pa ni kritike, ni pa dako. Jalouzi pa lapot. Si w pa vle kanpe nan pann pot, doye nan jalouzi.

Post Reply