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Jesus Family Tomb Believed Found - Men lòbèy !!!!

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:19 pm
by jafrikayiti
Jesus Family Tomb Believed Found ... 0225073000

Feb. 25, 2007 — New scientific evidence, including DNA analysis conducted at one of the world's foremost molecular genetics laboratories, as well as studies by leading scholars, suggests a 2,000-year-old Jerusalem tomb could have once held the remains of Jesus of Nazareth and his family.

The findings also suggest that Jesus and Mary Magdalene might have produced a son named Judah.

The DNA findings, alongside statistical conclusions made about the artifacts — originally excavated in 1980 — open a potentially significant chapter in Biblical archaeological history.

A documentary presenting the evidence, "The Lost Tomb of Jesus," will premiere on the Discovery Channel on March 4 at 9 p.m. ET/PT. The documentary comes from executive producer James Cameron and director Simcha Jacobovici.

Discovery has set up a special Web site,, to provide related in-depth information and to allow viewers to come to their own conclusions about the entire matter.

The Talpiot Tomb

On March 28, 1980, a construction crew developing an apartment complex in Talpiot, Jerusalem, uncovered a tomb, which archaeologists from the Israeli Antiquities Authority excavated shortly thereafter. Archaeologist Shimon Gibson surveyed the site and drew a layout plan. Scholar L.Y. Rahmani later published "A Catalogue of Jewish Ossuaries" that described 10 ossuaries, or limestone bone boxes, found in the tomb.

Scholars know that from 30 B.C. to 70 A.D., many people in Jerusalem would first wrap bodies in shrouds after death. The bodies were then placed in carved rock tombs, where they decomposed for a year before the bones were placed in an ossuary.

Five of the 10 discovered boxes in the Talpiot tomb were inscribed with names believed to be associated with key figures in the New Testament: Jesus, Mary, Matthew, Joseph and Mary Magdalene. A sixth inscription, written in Aramaic, translates to "Judah Son of Jesus."

"Such tombs are very typical for that region," Aaron Brody, associate professor of Bible and archaeology at the Pacific School of Religion and director of California's Bade Museum told Discovery News.

Ossuary Inscriptions

At least four leading epigraphers have corroborated the ossuary inscriptions for the documentary, according to the Discovery Channel.

Frank Moore Cross, a professor emeritus in the Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations at Harvard University, told Discovery News, "The inscriptions are from the Herodian Period (which occurred from around 1 B.C. to 1 A.D.). The use of limestone ossuaries and the varied script styles are characteristic of that time."

Jodi Magness, associate department chair of religious studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, told Discovery News that, based on the New Testament writings, "Jesus likely lived during the first century A.D."

In addition to the "Judah son of Jesus" inscription, which is written in Aramaic on one of the ossuaries, another limestone burial box is labeled in Aramaic with "Jesus Son of Joseph." Another bears the Hebrew inscription "Maria," a Latin version of "Miriam," or, in English, "Mary." Yet another ossuary inscription, written in Hebrew, reads "Matia," the original Hebrew word for "Matthew." Only one of the inscriptions is written in Greek. It reads, "Mariamene e Mara," which can be translated as, "Mary known as the master."

Francois Bovon, professor of the history of religion at Harvard University, told Discovery News, "Mariamene, or Mariamne, probably was the actual name given to Mary Magdalene."

Bovon explained that he and a colleague discovered a fourteenth century copy in Greek of a fourth century text that contains the most complete version of the "Acts of Philip" ever found. Although not included in the Bible, the "Acts of Philip" mentions the apostles and Mariamne, sister of the apostle Philip.

"When Philip is weak, she is strong," Bovon said. "She likely was a great teacher who even inspired her own sect of followers, called Mariamnists, who existed from around the 2nd to the 3rd century."

DNA Analysis

Jacobovici, director, producer and writer of "The Lost Tomb of Jesus," and his team obtained two sets of samples from the ossuaries for DNA and chemical analysis. The first set consisted of bits of matter taken from the "Jesus Son of Joseph" and "Mariamene e Mara" ossuaries. The second set consisted of patina — a chemical film encrustation on one of the limestone boxes.

The human remains were analyzed by Carney Matheson, a scientist at the Paleo-DNA Laboratory at Lakehead University in Ontario, Canada. Mitochondrial DNA examination determined the individual in the Jesus ossuary and the person in the ossuary linked to Mary Magdalene were not related.

Since tombs normally contain either blood relations or spouses, Jacobovici and his team suggest it is possible Jesus and Mary Magdalene were a couple. "Judah," whom they indicate may have been their son, could have been the "lad" described in the Gospel of John as sleeping in Jesus' lap at the Last Supper.

Robert Genna, director of the Suffolk County Crime Laboratory in New York, analyzed both the patina taken from the Talpiot Tomb and chemical residue obtained from the "James" ossuary, which was also found around 1980, but subsequently disappeared and resurfaced in the antiquities market. Although controversy surrounds this burial box, Genna found that the two patinas matched.

"The samples were consistent with each other," Genna told Discovery News.

Upon examining the tomb, the filmmakers determined a space exists that would have fit the "James" ossuary. Given the patina match and this observation, Jacobovici theorizes the lost burial box could, in fact, be the "James" ossuary.

Statistical Data

A possible argument against the Talpiot Tomb being the Jesus Family Tomb is that the collection of names on the ossuary inscriptions could be coincidental.

But Andrey Feuerverger, professor of statistics and mathematics at the University of Toronto, recently conducted a study addressing the probabilities that will soon be published in a leading statistical journal.

Feuerverger multiplied the instances that each name appeared during the tomb's time period with the instances of every other name. He initially found "Jesus Son of Joseph" appeared once out of 190 times, Mariamne appeared once out of 160 times and so on.

To be conservative, he next divided the resulting numbers by 25 percent, a statistical standard, and further divided the results by 1,000 to attempt to account for all tombs — even those that have not been uncovered — that could have existed in first century Jerusalem.

The study concludes that the odds are at least 600 to 1 in favor of the Talpiot Tomb being the Jesus Family Tomb. In other words, the conclusion works 599 times out of 600.

Another Tomb?

The researchers discovered a second, as-yet unexplored tomb about 65 1/2 feet from the Talpiot Tomb. During the documentary, they introduced a robotic camera into this second tomb, which captured the first-ever recorded footage of an undisturbed burial cave from Jesus' time. The team speculates that this other tomb could contain the remains of additional family members, or even disciples, though further examination and analysis are needed.

As Academy Award-winner Cameron said in a press release, "It doesn't get bigger than this. We've done our homework; we've made the case; and now it's time for the debate to begin."


Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:56 pm
by Leoneljb
Jesus lived his life without a Woman???

How could that be?

Based on the Bible, he was a "Celibataire"!

Madichon ap tonbe sou Ann Pale.KifE, nou oze di ke Jezi te konn fE deblozay!!

Kot Gelin sOti?

Bondye fE, nou pap pran kaka poul pou jOnn ze. Malatchong ke yo te konn ban nou lontan'an pap pase. Kounye'a nou gen lespri. FOk nou poze keksyon...

A la bEl bagay se sEvi Bondye..


Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:15 pm
by jafrikayiti

Fòk ou pa kouri chante "beniswaletènèl" pou kaka chat sa a ki pran lari semenn sa a non. Ekip defans Vatican an deja koumanse rale mayo, rele anmwey gòl a men.....paske mesyedam yo konnen konsekans koze sa a ki pran lari a. Ojis, menm swadizan syantis yo ap mache dousman, an chat pent pou yo pa deranje twòp gwo potanta ak koze a... Men, setinitil, Lafimen ou pa ka toufe sa.... Ak pasyans, se pa zosman Yesuah sèlman ki gen pou detere. Lèt analiz ADN fin fèt nan Jerizalèm, lè lòt zosman va soti anba tè pou pale ak nou....ti tonton bab blanch ki te konn fè anpil nèg mache tèt bese devan malfèktè ki di li se pitit prefere bondye.....ti tonton bab blanch lan, malatchong ki nan bwat Constantin an....tout tilezanj pral konnen se madigra li ye.

Osiris chaje ak pasyans.....l ap tann kè pòpòz, de bra kwaze !

Wi byenneme, A la bEl bagay se sEvi Bondye !


Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:59 pm
by jafrikayiti

Some of you in the U.S. might have already seen the documentary and the follow-up discussion which Ted Koppell was expected to moderate (apparently, Koppel served more as a fervent chearleader for the detractors of the documentary than a professional moderator). ... 5-171-0-0/

Those of us in Canada have to wait til tomorrow night, because our version of discovery channel did not carry last night's broadcast.

I have my own reservations about the approach taken by the film makers, but I want to reserve judgement on this thing, until after viewing it. So far, the reaction of the theologians and of the researchers who sat on this information for so many years, make me rather suspicious.

As the debate continues, I will also be monitoring this blog:

(James Tabor who produces this blog is one of the researchers involved in the documentary).

Any comments from those of you who saw the documentary?

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:12 pm
by Leoneljb
I didn't see the documentary. But, I know the Christians would challenge the truth!!!

It is a fact that Christianity uses the Egyptian Mythology. It is also a fact that Christ was Human like all of us. To accept that truth. Can you imagine how the World would react. Everything is based on Christianity. Everything is influenced by Christ, including our calendar. Bagay yo t'ap vinn tEt anba, si nou dekouvri lamerik Vatikan ak tout gwo konspiratE. Tout gwo vOlE tE ak kjouraj Afriken yo ansanm ak Endyen yo.

Asepte Jezi kOm sovE'n, pita n'a va sove. Se sa yo ba'n kenbe, kEl desten malere... (M. Charlemagne).

Horus didn't die either. He also went to heaven???

A la bEl bagay se sEvi Bondye.


Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:15 pm
by Shelony
Leonel wrote: [quote]I didn't see the documentary. But, I know the Christians would challenge the truth!!! [/quote]

What is "the truth"?, Are you refering to the documentary? How do you you know it is "the truth" or even part of the truth?

I am not an archeologist and may not be able to say much on the methods used to analyze whatever artifacts or specimen they may have (whaterver they are called), plus I was not able to watch the documentory although I would like to, but what I have read so far show me that there are serious weakness in their claims if they are really addressing things scientifically. If they are counteracting a religious claim with another one based on faith, then it's a purely religious debate. But otherwise, they need more studies.

[quote]Jacobovici, director, producer and writer of "The Lost Tomb of Jesus," and his team obtained two sets of samples from the ossuaries for DNA and chemical analysis. The first set consisted of bits of matter taken from the "Jesus Son of Joseph" and "Mariamene e Mara" ossuaries. The second set consisted of patina — a chemical film encrustation on one of the limestone boxes.

The human remains were analyzed by Carney Matheson, a scientist at the Paleo-DNA Laboratory at Lakehead University in Ontario, Canada. Mitochondrial DNA examination determined the individual in the Jesus ossuary and the person in the ossuary linked to Mary Magdalene were not related.

Since tombs normally contain either blood relations or spouses, Jacobovici and his team suggest it is possible Jesus and Mary Magdalene were a couple. "Judah," whom they indicate may have been their son, could have been the "lad" described in the Gospel of John as sleeping in Jesus' lap at the Last Supper. [/quote]

Why they only do DNA analysis on only two of the samples. Mitochondrial DNA are only inherited from mothers, so a negative test means that these two people do not have the same mother but it doesn't exclude the possibility that they have the same father and be in fact brother and sister as opposed to husband and wife. Therefore they can still be blood related. Also, if they are husband and wife and their son is also found as they seem to claim, mitochondrial DNA should link the son to his mother. What about te so called-Jesus DNA and his mother Mary ossuary? They could perform mitochondrial DNA for them too as well as potential "Jesus"' maternal brother found in the tomb.

What about contamination between dust from different ossuaries? How did they come with the low probability that it could be another family. Would not it be nicer and more credible to publish their results in a credible peer-reviewed journal where expert in the field could look at the data and the conclusions drawn to see how much the data support the conclusions.

In the scientific world, it is not unusual for two experts to look at the same set of data and conclude two different things; It is not unusual either for something that was thought to be true came out to be completely wrong. A scientific mind is a skeptical mind and enjoys and grows with challenges. Certain subjects are for the philosophers, others are for theologians and yet others are for the scientists. The three address different subjects with different styles and goals but I believe ( and it's my personal belief) that they all contribute to the completeness of human experience.

One may argue, "well, theologians do not contribute much; so much suffering is inflicted on mankind on the name of religion, it is something that our mind invented but we would have been much better off without it, philosophers are much better because they reason more while addressing many of the same subjects as theologians." Another may arguably say the same about science and/ or philosophy. Is our world getting better with more scientific knowledge? aren't philosophers equally human as experts in religions and science. What would life be without either of them, none of them? Is religion really a creation of the mind? Here I am just trying, very hard, real hard to be fair to the non-believer and present my thoughts in a non-partisan way. Although no matter how hard I try, my thought can only "sell" me as a believer, a christian. But still, I want to be fair and I am trying and I want to say that if religion has (or had as my thought would like me to say) nothing real about it, that if all the divine figures do (did) not exist for real and are (were) just the creations of our imaginations, to what purpose did we create (would we have created) them? to what advantage?

In life, do we have proof for everything? can we get proof for everything? Do we need proof for everything? Can we understand everything we see? How do we absolutely know that something is the truth? Which entity is responsible for finding this absolute truth? Who are in charge of that entity? Is it possible that the one(s) in charge could be faillible or even twisted?

If the results of that discovery and the subsequent studies were made available in an excellent peer-reviewed journal, would that make it auomatically the absolute truth? What if no journal wants to publish it does that exclude the fact that it can be the truth or part of the truth?

These are to me serious food for thought.


Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:27 pm
by Leoneljb
Shelony, my good Friend, here's the truth:

A Virgin Isis gave birth to her son Horus on December 25th where three wisemen came with their presents for the New born King. Oops, I forgot there was a shiny unusual Star on top of his House.

Horus became this Son of God who made Miracles after Miracles! He walked on water!!!! etc etc. You know thre rest.

Anyway, Horus was based on an Egyptian legend or ti kont (krik krak). This happened about ten Centuries prior to the Christ's story.

With the help of Constantine, the Vatican used the Egyptian's Myth as reality for Billions of people, generations after generations.

Which makes us ask that question, Who was Jesus?

Jesus was a Philosopher, a Militant who was against Injustice. He was a close relative to David and next to be the King ...

How did He get so powerful?

Did He really go to Heaven?

Was he the Son of God?

I will get back to discuss this later. For, I need to go to bed.

I will talk to you later,


Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:00 pm
by Shelony
I understand now that "the truth" that you mentioned has nothing to do with the documentary or the tomb discovery. I do not know ancient mythology that well to discuss the statements you made above.

However, I just want to point out that nowhere in the Bible is it mentioned that Jesus was born on December 25. Many Christians even believe that there are indications that his birth could have never happened on such cold season. And my questions:

Are you suggesting that the story as told in Matthew and Luke were influenced by Constantine and Vatican? If that's what you believe, then, where in History would you situate these gospel writings?

I'll come back later to talk about the findings and documentary.

Also Jaf, if you watch it, may you tell us what was your impression?


Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:57 pm
by Guysanto
Mwen sezi wè Gelin poko rantre nan jwèt la. Sa vle di m'sye anfouye tout bon.

Annatandan, Shelony vin twoke kòn ak Jaf ak Leonel. Sa fè m plezi anpil. Mwen kontan wè Shelony pa te lage nou. Mwen tou pwofite ba l yon komisyon, pou li di Stephan Denis Lominy bòn fèt pou mwen, menm si sa gen de semèn reta. Mwen imajine m se pa de kouri msye pap kouri kounyè a epi bay kont tèt chaje tou. Amwenske se yon ti Jezi msye ye. Antouka, sanble li bay Shelony yon ti chans pou li ekri sè jou si (yon bagay matant Anacaona pa fè ankò).

Bagay sa yo m'ap li anlè a gen gwo tèt chaje ladan yo. Figire w Jezi te fè pitit ak Marimadlèn vre. Sa ta vle di enstriman m'sye a te fonksyone tout bon, ke li te konn sèvi avèk li tankou tout lòt gason. Koze sa twòp pou mwen papa. Alevouzan Satan!

E nèg Matthew a menm, sa li vin chache la? Ki moun yo di li ye, se frè Jezi (pitit Jozèf ak Mari) oswa se te youn nan disip Jezi Listwasent retni kòm youn nan 4 evanjelis yo? Pote yon ti limyè pou mwen souple.

Shelony, si ou wè-m poze kesyon sa yo, sa pa vle di mwen kwè nan dekouvèt sa non. Tankou-w, mwen se disip Sen Toma. Men sepandan, mwen jis ta renmen konprann tout longè koze sa, kit se mitoloji li ye, kit se reyalite.

Men pou ti sa mwen wè nan koze a deja, si li ta reyalite, se sov ki pe! Bagay sa ta vin kraze fondman yon mitoloji (mwen anplwaye mo sa san prejidis) ki gen 2 milenè depi l'ap boloze sou latèbeni. Kidonk, ann fè atansyon pou-n byen mezire koze yo anvan nou rele: "Men Verite a!"

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:21 pm
by Shelony
Pou kòmanse, mwen vle di Guy you gwo mèsi pou swèt li fè Stephan pou premye anivèsè li. Stephan trè byen e li ap degaje l pou l pale e imite tout sa granmoun fè.
Men li gen lè pran kot manman l e li deside li poko ap mache (mwen te mache sou 15 mwa). Men sa pa anpeche li mete kay la tèt anba paske li ale kote li vle sou de (2) pla men, you pla pye ak you jenou. Lè li rive kote l bezwen an li kanpe sou de pye l pou l fè dega (sa se matant li li eritye).

Pou mesye “Mattiew”, yo ta vle fè konprann ke li gen kèk relasyon fanmi avèk Marie. Men se sèlman you ipotèz yo avanse. Yo mete'l sou sit "discovery channel" ke jaf te bay piwo a.

Lòt kesyon ke moun avanse se ki probabilite ke you fanmi pòv tankou fanmi Jezi ki nan labib la te ka posede you tonm lafanmi e si yo ta va genyenl, ki bò li tap ye, “Jerusalem” ou byen “Nazareth”? Pa blye yo pat ni soti “Jerusalem” ni abite “Jerusalem”.

Leonel, mwen ta renmen ou dim sa ou panse de validite konklizyon mesye yo a pati de etid yo di yo prezante yo.


Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:27 pm
by jafrikayiti

I watched the whole documentary on Tuesday night (minus the Ted Koppel discussion which was not broadcasted in Canada).

My assessment is that the filmmakers have done a good job presenting their theory and I, overall, I find their claims reasonable. i.e. a compelling case can be made that the discovered tomb is the family tomb of "the" biblical Yesuah.

Now, it remains to see what the chevron sign meant to 1st century jews. Will there be enough political will (including on the part of the few scientists who have influence in the antiquities sector) to unearth and test the bones that were reburied in 1980. With these tests, we would have a better understanding of the possible relaonaships between all the people found in the tomb.

Just this morning I spent a few minutes in a book store looking at the list of books that have turned up recently on the subject of Christianity and the alternative histories of the church that have popped up in recent months... One title in particular attracted my attention. It is "Jesus for the non-religious" by John Shelby Spong. ... 0060762071

As the years go by, I expect more honest people from the heart of Christianity to come forward and admit that the dogma that billions have been forced into accepting, deserves to be let go. As i argue in Viv Bondye Aba Relijyon, with this dogma religion had effectively conducted a coup d'état against the Creator. Relijyon pran plas Bondye.

More and more people are discovering that there is no future for God inside organized religion.


Sunday's preaching!

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:29 pm
by Leoneljb
Byen eme,

Mwen t'a vle fE oun ti rale nan otantisite labib!!!

The bible started with Genesis which is a little bit like this,

God created the Earth in six Days, and HE (the Omnipotent, the futurist God) rested the seventh day. Then he declared,

You all know the rest of the stories.

He created Adam with dust. Then, realized that Adam was lonely. He created Woman with one rib from Adam. And he wanted Woman to OBEY!!!! Do not eat the Forbiden Fruit!

Byeneme, does this sound real?

The first Being on Earth, was Human.

We all know about the Dinosaurs. We all heard about the first human was discovered in Ethiopia. She was estimated to die some 40 million years ago! At that time, the scriptures were not invented yet.

Now, the bible is as young as two thousand years. What's up?

Dieu crea l'Homme a son image. He created the dinosaurs at what image?

God is more perfect than Perfection itself. But yet, He created Satan! God knows the Present, the Past and the Future! But yet, He failed to realize that the Earth would need Light. Adam would need Eve. Furthermore, He created us to follow his orders. He wants us to be like his personal Robots who the only thing He likes is Praises of his accomplishments...

Byeneme, the Bible of Jean, Jacques, Mathieu or Jerome proves to be the Book of oppression! The conquerers used it to enslave the Poor People of Africa.

Byeneme, I was using the Old Testament. Let's go to the New Testament which is Jesus'Preaching.

The new Testament uses Jesus as the Son of a Virgin and the artificial insemination by God. Remember, Marie had a Fiancee (Josef). But, who cares? God wants. God gets!

Jesus was the son of God! He walked on water. And made the Impossible, Possible.

Let me underline that one can not use his knowledge or any Scientific evidence to prove the inexistence of God father and Son. For. it is based on Faith! Yes, Faith!

If you guys remember Maurice Sixto stories about The driver who came home and found a pair of big shoes in front of his bed. When confronted, his wife declared, "It's better to stop the Relationship". Paske ale kile, ou pito kwE nan sa'w wE ke sa'm di'w. This is Faith!

A la de zen papa.

Anyway,Christians, there is nothing wrong in Jesus having wife (ves) and kid (S). He was Human also! If He were only God. He would not have needed a Body. Because God is a Spirit. He doesn't need a Body.

Mwen pa konprann pouki sa moun ap voksifere paszke ti Jezi te konn fE laplanch! Oun nEg si espirityEl konsa'a. Nou pa panse ke li t'ap bezwen degaje konsyans li! Ala de tray papa!

Ban'm ale, anvan ke nou kouri dEyE'm. Nou pa wE Gelin kache pou mwen. Men'm Tidodo ak Padel pa rele'm ankO...

Mwen se youn Malediksyon ONE.

Le Reverand Leonel Jean-Baptiste de l'Eglise Sans Foi

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:44 pm
by Bouli
Sa k'ap pase konsa. Apa kretyen yo pa kontan poutèt dekouvèt kavo fanmi Jezi an. Mwen te gentan fin ranje kO-m pou fete you lòt holiday ak kretyen yo, eheh pifò boude dekouvEt la. Istwa kavo vid pou touris ak holywood la pi bèl, sanble. Ala kote moun renmen bèl mèvèy pou ajiste fwa di/fwa mou.

“Car il est écrit” Leonel, kifè mesye vatikan yo fin kopye literati Afriken yo epi yo declare-l pawòl profetize. Ti koken vatikan yo panse yo te ka vlope laverite pou toutan gen tan.

Dapre jenez Bondye ta komanse eseye esplike kijan li te kreye tet li. Men sa mande kretyen lafwa elastik pou swiv misye ki te fin pedi sou dlo. Se apre plizyE lanjelis misye te vin sonje pou-l kreye soley la.

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:57 am
by Leoneljb
Bouli, ou p'ap sove non Papa! Vatikan di'w oun bagay. Kounye'a ou vle defEt li.

Mwen menm, mwen kwE nan fEt krismas ak Pak. Le jou a yo, nou gen Vakans. Si ou vle demaske koken nEg sa yo. W'ap oblije refE Kalandriye ke yo bannou yo. Kidonk, ou wE nan ki mera n'ap pran!!!!!!

Se reziye'w, vale manti yo!

Si'w gen la fwa, ou pa'p mouri...

Dieu est Partout! (sa fE'm sonje oun kamyon an Ayiti)

Pasteur Leonel

Resurrection of the Dead

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:49 pm
by jafrikayiti
An interesting update on the Tabor blog....

March 26, 2007
Robert Gundry's Post and “Resurrection of the Dead”
Filed under: Tabor's Blog — James Tabor @ 7:23 am

Bruce Fisk has posted a thoughtful treatment of the view of Paul and other early Christians on the “physicality” of the notion of resurrection of the dead by Robert Gundry. Prof. Gundry focuses on the the issue of the resurrection of Jesus in particular, but then extends his analysis to cover Paul's more general notion of the resurrection of those “dead in Christ” when he returns from heaven. Gundry offers a critical evaluation of my views as published in The Jesus Dynasty as well as here on my Blog. I appreciate the input and the respectful consideration and I want to take up some of the issues he raises in subsequent posts on this Blog.

I am in the process of writing a book on Paul (working title: Paul and the Invention of Christianity) that will offer a sustained interpretation of Paul's career, mission, and message, the outlines of which I hinted at in chapter 16 of The Jesus Dynasty, and the foundation of which I published in Things Unutterable (1986).

The issues that Prof. Gundry highlights relate directly to the notion of finding a Jesus Family tomb, including an ossuary with the bones of Jesus of Nazareth, and what that might say about the development of early Christian views of Jesus and the Messianic Kingdom that he intended to inaugurate. So much of this depends on how we can reconstruct the days and weeks following the death of Jesus. The amalgamated accounts of Luke and John, both of which stress “physical” (or quasi-physical) appearances of Jesus in Jerusalem to his disciples over a period of weeks following that fateful Passover, have become the unconscious master “Easter narrative” in our heads, much like conflated versions of the Christmas Story. Backing off a bit, and sorting things out, is difficult, but it can be done, if one gives careful attention to our sources, particularly Mark and Q, but also the development of the “resurrection” story in Matthew as well, as a backdrop to what we find in Paul.

I think a very plausible argument can be made that Jesus' body was moved, possibly by Joseph of Arimathea, to a permanent rock hewn tomb, and that the messianic faith his community subsequently maintained, under the leadership of Jesus' brother James, had nothing to do with a belief that his corpse had come to life, made various appearances, and then was taken physically into heaven.

In this regard Matthew 27:52-53 is a key passage in the development of this apologetic mythology, but one that is often ignored or overlooked. It has to do with resurrection of the dead and appearances “on the third day,” but not that of Jesus but of a whole group of folks. Notice:

When Jesus died Matthew tells us, [quote]“The earth shook, the rocks were split; the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.” [/quote]This has to be one of the strangest passages in the gospels, related only here by Matthew. The Greek is a bit unclear but it sounds like these dead folk were revived when Jesus died, but then stayed in their tombs, or perhaps otherwise laid low, until “after his resurrection,” presumably Sunday morning, when there would have been “mass appearances,” not only that of Jesus, but of these many others.

This is a picture that I think very few have in their heads when it comes to the standard Easter story. Are we to imagine these were the corpses of those who had recently died, shrouded on various shelves and arcosolia in tombs, in various states of decomposition, who came to life and made their appearances? One can only try to imagine what state they would have been in but the scene as described sounds quite “physical.”

Does Matthew have in mind actual bones, as in the visiion of Ezekiel, upon which tissue and organs suddenly formed, and reanimated persons emerged with breath and life? The entire scene is almost too bizzare to imagine (remember the Michael Jackson video?), but what it does show is that Matthew is interested in making an apologetic point. How do we know that the dead were raised? How can it be proven? We know that Matthew is dealing with certain “Jewish” opponents who are claiming that Jesus was simply reburied in another tomb. What he wants to affirm with this mass resurrection tale is that many others who were dead, not just Jesus, appeared to many people in the city (Gk emphanizo, cf. John 21:1), thus making the resurrection of the dead an event with a multiplicity of evidence.

This claim of mass appearances is quite important in the development of the relatively late apologetically motivated testimony that the corpse of Jesus was also raised and physically “appeared to many.”

Paul's view is quite different, and earlier, but more on that in subsequent posts.

Mezanmi kote kanmarad Gélin ?

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:04 pm
by Bouli
Leonel mEsi pou konpliman. M'swete pa sove men, jan yo di neg anlE a gen bon kE. Men nou papa, n'pran nan twa wa.

Jaf sanble toutmoun nan JerizalEm pa sonje pezans tout revenan sa yo. Antouka kesyon an pa pi konplike pase sa pou Kretyen yo gen lafwa. SEl bagay mwen pa konprann ak Kretyen ki kache dEyE lafwa, ti krik ti krak yo vle wE ADN.

Mezanmi poukisa Legliz minimize gwosE espektak sa? Eske se poutEt Legliz pa sonje ki wout revenan yo te fE (rantre lakay oubyen monte nan asansE).

Ala kote moun tande koze se Chanlmas!

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:45 am
by Gelin
Boujou Mesyedam....:-)

M pral retounen patisipe anpil ankò sou fowòm nan nan jou kap vini yo. Map oblije pran yon titan pou m rafrechi lizyè m, pou m ka li e konsidere detay sa yo ki prezante la a; men an reyalite se pa premye fwa koze konsa pale sou Jezi.

Na wè pi devan,


bon retrouvay Gélin!

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:48 pm
by jafrikayiti
Antouka Gélin, kite m di ou mwen kontan ou resisite pou ou vini di nou bonjou sou fowòm nan. Paske, kote mwen sèten okenn malè pa rive Jezi, jis paske nou pa pran nouvèl li sou fowòm nan, se pa menm biten pou noumenm Ayisyen 2 bra balan. :o) :wink:

Kidonk, n ap tann nouvèl ou. Pa bandone nou vye frè !


Re: Resurrection of the Dead

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:09 pm
by Gelin
[quote]...We know that Matthew is dealing with certain “Jewish” opponents who are claiming that Jesus was simply reburied in another tomb...[/quote]
Well, we don't know that, and I don't know where this guy gets his ideas. Actually right after his burial, some of those who killed Jesus took all necessary measures to prevent the removal of his physical body:

[quote]...The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate. "Sir," they said, "we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, 'After three days I will rise again.' So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. <u>Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first</u>." "Take a guard," Pilate answered. "Go, make the tomb as secure as you know how." So they went and made the tomb secure by putting a seal on the stone and posting the guard...see Mat 27:62-66.[/quote]
On top of that, even Jesus' disciples DID NOT BELIEVE he was going to come back from the dead, and thought that his cricifixion also meant the end/death of their movement . So it would not make sense for them to go and remove the body just to spread something they did not believe it in the first place. According to the written records, Jesus himslef had to appear to his disciples several times BEFORE they could be convinced it was really him. I know who so many people are affraid of the idea of Jesus' resurrection...:-)

Also, the use of the work scientific at the beginning of the original article DOES NOT necessarily mean that proper scientific procedures were followed. Shelony raised some valid questions.


Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:58 pm
by Bouli

What do you think about this passage of Matthew, the author highlighted[quote]The earth shook, the rocks were split; the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many[/quote]

Were you the Valliant Roman soldier guarding Jesus tomb, what would you do during that moving moment?

One would ask what was so special about Jesus reappearance since so many resurrected and went to the holy city?(...retaken possession of their properties...)

Matthew is the man!

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:50 am
by jafrikayiti

Are you suggesting that the guy (or gal) whose work was published under the name of "Matthew" 2000 years ago, had more imagination than Michael Jackson's video producer?

[quote]the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many[/quote]

And then what happened to all these "revenant"? They returned to their families who received them with open arms? They remaried and created new families within the community? or, due to rejection, they created a new community of "alive again" and had offspring among themselves..... or did they take off with Jesus on Easter Sunday to the place called heaven (which is 3 galaxies to the left of our own, 6 planets to the top and right above "hell" - so that the saved can have a perfect view of the infidels who shall burn eternally).

And the award goes to... :wink:

Re: Jesus Family Tomb Believed Found - Men lòbèy !!!!

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:02 pm
by Gelin
It's not rare for two people or two groups of people to look at the same thing and come up with different conclusions. Shelony reminded us of this truth that we all know already. For example, I studied the life of Jesus as presented in the Bible and became a believer. Others look at the same Bible and can't stop laughing......that's life! The joke of the Jesus' lost tomb is another good example.

In the original post, we read:

[quote]...In addition to the "Judah son of Jesus" inscription, which is written in Aramaic on one of the ossuaries, another limestone burial box is labeled in Aramaic with "Jesus Son of Joseph." Another bears the Hebrew inscription "Maria," a Latin version of "Miriam," or, in English, "Mary." Yet another ossuary inscription, written in Hebrew, reads "Matia," the original Hebrew word for "Matthew." Only one of the inscriptions is written in Greek. It reads, "Mariamene e Mara," which can be translated as, "Mary known as the master."...[/quote]
But another mind sees something else in the same finding:

[quote]...The scholars who analyzed the Greek inscription on one of the ossuaries after its discovery read it as "Mariamene e Mara," meaning "Mary the teacher" or "Mary the master."

Before the movie was screened, Jacobovici said that particular inscription provided crucial support for his claim. The name Mariamene is rare, and in some early Christian texts it is believed to refer to Mary Magdalene.

But having analyzed the inscription, Pfann published a detailed article on his university's Web site asserting that it doesn't read "Mariamene" at all.

The inscription, Pfann said, is made up of two names inscribed by two different hands: the first, "Mariame," was inscribed in a formal Greek script, and later, when the bones of another woman were added to the box, another scribe using a different cursive script added the words "kai Mara," meaning "and Mara." Mara is a different form of the name Martha.

According to Pfann's reading, the ossuary did not house the bones of "Mary the teacher," but rather of two women, "Mary and Martha."

"In view of the above, there is no longer any reason to be tempted to link this ossuary ... to Mary Magdalene or any other person in biblical, non-biblical or church tradition," Pfann wrote.

In the interest of telling a good story, Pfann said, the documentary engaged in some "fudging" of the facts.

see [/quote]

Let me stretch it a bit...

I would not be surprised at all if these people who claim to have found the remains of Jesus come back a few years from now with a complete family tree (supported by DNA profile!!!), showing how his progeny was spread into the most remote parts of Europe. Among Jesus distant relatives, we could find the names of important people like Napoleon, King James, and why not Leonardo da Vinci himself...

Talking about people of faith? Bouli and leonel are men of faith, of great faith....:-)

na wè pita,

[Guy, in the past we could do some editing in our posts but you seem to have taken that away. Am I right?]

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:57 am
by Bouli
[quote]I studied the life of Jesus as presented in the Bible and became a believer. Others look at the same Bible and can't stop laughing...[/quote]
One more time I admire your honesty as a Christian for keeping Jesus in the bibles where you think he belongs. You may be challenged by others for doing so but, I know you'll stick to the truth. Just like one can study Toussaint, Dessalines… their actions could inspire many. However, they remain in these texts. Can one say the same about the Sun?

Gelin, when you have a chance, could you please share Matthew's passage regarding the bodies that were raised out of their tombs at Jesus resurrection with us?

We noticed that Jesus got into the bibles. What about the rest of them. My faith, if I recall the church I went to never mentioned anything about this group of born again.

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:55 pm
by Gelin
[quote]...Just like one can study Toussaint, Dessalines… their actions could inspire many. However, they remain in these texts. Can one say the same about the Sun?...[/quote]
The reason we cannot say exactly the same thing about Jesus (the Son) is because he was a religious leader (Messiah) that the Jews were waiting for based of countless references (prophecies) in their own texts written hundreds of years before he actually came. You might say that he was expected to come and do the things he did. As an example:
[quote]Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him. Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for." Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?" - see
Mat 26:49-54)[/quote]
Now let me address your question regarding the people who came back from the dead at the time of Jesus' death (Matt 27:52-53). The Bible mentions two ways people will be raised from the dead:

1) with a mortal body - Those who come back with a mortal body continue their normal life until they die again and are buried. Lazarus is a good example, and as a matter of fact many of Jesus' enemies wanted to kill him along with Jesus because in their eyes he represented too powerful an evidence pointing to Jesus as the Messiah (read John 12:9-11).

2) with a spiritual or immortal body - Those who come back from the dead with a spiritual body cannot die and cannot marry or have children because they are like angels. There was an exchange of ideas between Jesus and a group of religious Jews who did not believe in the resurrection of the dead or the possibility of life after death. Read it in Matthew 22:23-33.

Now, to go back to your question, I think these people who came back from the dead after Jesus' crucifixion belong to the second group.

na wè pita,

Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 3:53 pm
by Guysanto
Mortal bodies and spiritual bodies.... ah, Gelin, tu m'as beaucoup manqué!

Cela me rappelle une conversation que nous avons eu en janvier 2005 au sujet des morts-vivants. Ça c'est déroulé comme ça plus ou moins:

[quote]Savez-vous quand Lazare mourut définitivement ?

Savez-vous quand Lazare mourut définitivement après qu'il eut été ramené à la vie par Jésus-Christ quelque temps après sa première mort?

Surtout Guy, Jonas, Gelin, Serge, Jaf, Jean-Marie, Zanfanginen, Nekita, Leonel: Ne me dites pas que Lazare mort ne fut " Levé " que comme les Zombis de chez nous en Haiti (dont on ne sait pas s'ils peuvent encore mourir comme Zombis)

Que dit la Bible sur la seconde vie de Lazare sur notre Terre juste après son "levage" je ne parlerais pas de résurrection comme pour le Christ au troisième jour de sa mort?

Jésus-Christ n'a-t-il voulu que nous donner dans le cas de Lazare, un petit et court aperçu, une démonstration de la capacité de Dieu de ramener à la vie Éternelle ceux et celles qui resteront attachés dans la Foi à sa Parole?

Ou encore Folks :

Pensez-vous que Jésus n'a voulu que plaire aux charmantes soeurs de Lazare en les épatant avec une démonstration magique sur le cadavre de leur frère Lazare?

Qu'en dites-vous Guy, Jonas, Nekita, Gelin et vous tous?

[quote]Lemane, on ne meurt pas deux fois.

Lazare vit encore, oublié de tous. Je l'ai rencontré il y a quelques jours à Port-Authority, New York. Il a parcouru le monde sans avoir jamais gagné un sou, destiné à vivre éternellement sur cette terre parce que Jésus a oublié de lui fournir le mot de passe qui permettrait à la Mort d'effacer de l'Histoire son échec le plus cuisant. Que Jésus ait triomphé de la Mort, bon .. cela va de soi, mais Lazare??? La Mort n'en revient pas. Et elle ne peut rien y faire.

Il m'a raconté des histoires fantastiques, ce vieux, et je sais qu'elles étaient toutes vraies. J'ai voulu lui donner l'adresse de Nekita, mais je ne l'avais pas sous la main. J'ai promis de le retrouver quand je me rendrais à Manhattan pour une quelconque occasion mais il ne m'a pas donné l'assurance qu'il serait encore là. Il m'a dit qu'à défaut de mourir d'ennui (il avait bien essayé) il ne cesse de visiter le monde depuis vingt siècles. Il pensait avoir tout vu, tout entendu... mais il s'étonnait quand même des bévues (pour ne pas dire bêtises) du président actuel des Etats-Unis d'Amérique. Je lui ai demandé s'il savait l'histoire des deux Gérard. Il m'a répondu que cela n'était que du small change. "Le problème avec Haiti," me dit-il, "c'est que vous ne vous souvenez de rien."

J'ai voulu faire du tripotage, en lui posant une ou deux questions en travers, au sujet de Marie Madeleine et de vous savez Qui. Il m'a répondu: "Vis encore un peu, mon ami. On se reverra peut-être."

Je lui ai demandé comment il fait pour voyager de partout le monde puisqu'il ne travaille pas. Il a souri, mis la main dans sa poche et en a tiré quelques sous pour Windows on Haiti. "Il y a de ces choses qui existent," me dit-il, "on ne sait pas trop, comment." Moi, j'avais compris, tous les mystères ne seront pas expliqués.

J'ai également demandé à Lazare s'il avait pensé à s'inscrire aux records de Guinness. Il m'a répondu que le livre de Guinness, c'était de la foutaise. De toute façon, m'a dit Lazare, son cas était loin d'être le plus exceptionnel, car la Mort avait bien eu raison de lui, fut-ce temporairement, comme elle avait aussi eu raison de son grand Ami (qui avait sûrement dû la laisser faire). Dieu le Père par contre s'en dispensait tout bonnement. N'a-t-Il pas fait monter Élie au ciel dans un tourbillon. La Mort, résignée, ne pouvait que de loin observer ce char de feu et ces chevaux de feu qui dérobaient Élie de sa portée. "Dieu le Père!", murmura-t-elle entre ses dents. Il lui faudrait attendre encore longtemps avant d'espérer prendre sa revanche sur Lazare, ami de Jésus et Jésus Lui-même, revanche qui pourtant s'est soldée en échec les deux fois. "Jésus le charpentier, bon..." pensait-elle, "Le Prophète Elie, passe encore... mais LAZARE!" Comme je l'avais dit déjà, la Mort n'en revenait pas. En plus, il y eut ce pape au vingtième siècle qui eut même osé déclarer que Marie, la mère de Jésus, fut montée au ciel vivante. Cela déprimait la Mort sérieusement! Voilà qu'elle ne pouvait même pas prouver que Marie était bel et bien morte, puisque personne n'a fait état de son acte de décès. Et la Mort encore affligée de la résurrection de Lazare ne savait pas comment ou plutôt ne se souvenait pas du tout de l'Assomption de Marie. Fut-ce possible? Non, la Mort n'arrivait pas à y croire. Décidément elle se rangeait du côté des Protestants qui eux ont le bonheur de ne croire rien, absolument rien, aux soi-dites infallabilités d'un vieux curé de Rome. Elie, Lazare, Jésus, Marie... il n'en faudrait qu'un cinquième!

"Un cinquième?" dis-je à Lazare, mais ce n'est pas du tout une mauvaise idée! Je me porte volontaire. Lazare me dévisagea avec quelque peu d'inquiétude: "T'en es sûr?"

"Absolument", je lui dis. "Bon, j'en parlerai à Mon Ami, si jamais Il pense à me rendre visite comme Il le faisait auparavant. Mais, tu sais, tu pourrais finir comme moi.. c'est à dire à ne pas finir du tout, à voyager partout sans destination aucune, sans pouvoir penser à une retraite, pourtant bien méritée dans ton cas. Tu te vois, par exemple, à écrire sur ces fenêtres sur Haiti dans deux cents ans et plus?"

"Bon, cela me convient," lui dis-je, "je voudrais bien savoir comment se passera le bicentenaire de notre bicentenaire." Lazare sourit... il semblait déjà le savoir.

Le train de New Jersey Transit allait bientôt partir. Nous avons échangé des propos jusquà la dernière seconde. Je vous les raconterai peut-être un autre jour. C'est à suivre. Mais je me souviens bien de Lazare et je devrais bientôt retourner à Manahattan avec l'espoir de le retrouver. Je me demande parfois s'il sait bien les dangers qui l'entourent de partout à New York. Avec sa physionomie, il pourrait bientôt se retrouver à Guantanamo, comme un ennemi combattant, courtoisie de Georges fils, bien entendu.[/quote]

[quote]Guy ,

Avec le grand développement sur le sort de Lazare , je souhaite te rappeler de ne pas oublier de nous dire si tu sais si nos Zombis made in Haiti savent mourir ou sont éternels, une fois zombifiés.

Dans le second cas, Dieu ne serait pas le seul à accorder la Vie Éternelle .... Et comme croyants-chrétiens-fidèles-baptisés-confirmés-renouvelés-reconfirmés, il nous est difficile d'admettre à quelqu'un d'autre que Dieu, la vertu de pourvoir la vie Duram-Eternam...

[quote]Entre nous, Lazare m'est apparu en rêve la nuit dernière. Il m'a dit qu'il laissait New York, mais qu'il nétait pas sûr encore de sa prochaine destination, Toronto ou Boston. Il comptait également se retrouver à Washington vers la fin du mois pour protester la re-installation de Georges fils. Il m'a dit que c'était une tragédie pour l'humanité entière.

Je lui ai posé ta question sur les zombis d'Haiti. "Est-ce qu'ils restent toujours en vie?" Il m'a répondu ainsi: "Guy, soyons sérieux." C'est tout ce que je puisse te dire.

Je vais de ce pas à Manhattan pour voir si je peux le rencontrer en personne une dernière fois avant son départ. [/quote]

[quote]Un autre aspect de la question...

Une grande multitude de Juifs apprirent que Jésus était à Béthanie; et ils y vinrent, non pas seulement à cause de lui, mais aussi pour voir Lazare, qu'il avait ressuscité des morts. Les principaux sacrificateurs délibérèrent de faire mourir aussi Lazare, parce que beaucoup de Juifs se retiraient d'eux à cause de lui, et croyaient en Jésus (Jean 12:9-11).[/quote]

[quote]Mais, Tiens Guy :

Un Zombi est-il un être humain visible (Pour certains) ou invisible (pour d'autres ) ... ou les 2 à la fois et à volonté: visible et invisible ..

Un Zombi est-il un esprit?

Un esprit peut-il mourir Guy?

Remarque Guy, que je ne cherche pas à te coller. Je ne sais rien du Zombisme. La Bible n'a pas cru bon d'en parler ..

Dans la Bible, il est question de mauvais esprits invisibles que Jésus chassa et fit périr en mer au travers d'une multitude de porcs ..


Ce qui est né de la chair est chair, et ce qui est né de l'Esprit est esprit.

Jean: 3,6[/quote]