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Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:47 am
[quote]Sitting alone in a downtown park, Gracilia Alexandre said she had just dropped off her 12-year-old son and 9-year-old daughter at their uncle's house unannounced because she could no longer take care of them.
Alexandre said her husband was killed in a robbery two years ago and she has been unable to find a job. She expects the uncle to force the children to work for their food and shelter.
"I don't think they are going to be treated well," said Alexandre, 26. "It was painful for me to make that decision."
Youn nan pi gro problèm Ayiti, seke trop timoun ap fè pitit. Lè ou pran you moun a 26 lane ki gentan gen you pitit 12 lane nan men l, m ap poze tèt mwen kesyon lè you moun fè you pitit a 14 an, ki jan li konnen li pral okipe timoun sa-a? Eske se sou kont paran l lal fè l? Toutotan nou pa pran tan pou nou atake problèm sa-a, chak jou nap leve, nap w
è sitiyasyon ekonomik peyi ya vin pi mal. Sa fè ap toujou gen restavèk.
Men, problèm sosyete ya genyen seke nou refize pratike egalite. Se pa paske you moun bay you timoun kote pou l domi kife ou oblije maltrete timoun nan. Donk, edikasyon sosyete ya bezwen fèt nan sans sa pou yo aprann konnen pou yo pa fè lòt moun sa yo pa ta renmen lòt moun fè yo.
Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:42 am
Nan atik ke Marilyn te mete sou forum nan, gen you bagay kite atirem anpil. Se te afè jèn fi ki genyen 26 lane sou tèt li ya epi ki gen you pitit 12 lane nan men li. Mwen te di konsa nou bezwen atake jan de problèm (fenomèn) sa yo nan sosyete nou an nan travay ke nou ta dwe fè pou chanje eskanp figi peyi nou an.
You bagay mwen ta renmen ajoute sou sa mwen te di ya se you bagay ke mwen konstate ki egziste anpil nan sosyete nou an e se you fenomèn ke map swiv depi lontan. Mwen toujou ap panse sou sitiyasyon sa a. Map prezante kostatasyon an sou forum nan e mwen ta renmen jwenn moun ki di sa yo panse sou.
Youn nan problèm ki egzite nan mitan jèn nou yo se presyon la relijion. Le ou pran pa egzanp andan legliz nou yo, depi you jèn ansent, solisyon an se mariaj men si mwayen ekonomik yo pa pèmèt yo fòme you fanmi. Anpil fwa nou konstate gen kèk jèn kap menm rive al ansent jis pou yo ka marye. Defwa m konn ap mande èske yo pan
se ak konsekans sa ka gen sou rès la vi yo. Èske yo panse ak avni timoun ke yo pral mennen nan monn lan.
Pou mwen menm, mwen panse ke li lè li tan pou pastè ak prèt sispann fe mariaj pou sove ka. A la minit ke yo deside yo pap fè jan de mariaj sa yo, anpil moun ap tann lè yo pre pou yo marye.
p.s. si gen pastè oswa pè sou forum nan, mwen pa vin atake nou non.
Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:29 pm
Anacaona, èske pastè ak pè a ki beni maryaj la gen menm nivo reskonsabilite ak paran ki deside pou maryaj la fèt?
Lò yon timoun pote yon timoun, kòman sosyete a ta dwe reyaji? Mwen konprann pafètman ke li pi bon pou yon jenn fi pa vin ansent jis li majè, sètadi fòk li pa ta nan zafè sèks ditou, men malerzman nou tout konnen ka sa yo rive detanzantan. Kidonk, fòk nou panse non sèlman a prevansyon, men tou ki meyè fason pou rezoud pwoblèm lan lò ka a prezante.
Si gason an ki bay gwòs la, limenm li majè, èske fòk yo marye li ak jenn fi a, fòse li pran responsabilite pou madanm ak pititi, oswa pran prizon?
Pou zafè prevansyon an, ki lè nou panse yon paran ta fèt pou l ankouraje pitit gason li sèvi ak kapòt sizoka? E fi yo menm? Ki lè pou paran yo sispann trete yo kòm lasentvyèj epi pale ak yo kareman de sa yo gen pou fè pou evite pran gwòs nan men vagabon?
Si yon ti fi 12-13-14 an vin ansent, èske moun relijye yo ap dak
ò ke meyè chwa a se pou l fè yon avòtman? Si yo pa dakò, ki sa yo pwopoze? Si se pitit yo sa rive? Eske yo pral di moun nan asanble yo pou yo pa janm fè avòtman, men anba chal yo menm yo pral fè l pou tèt pa yo oswa pou pitit yo, san zòt manm nan legliz la pa bezwen konnen kouman yo regle pwoblèm yo?
Si se yon gason nan klas boujwaz la ki ansent yon ti restavèk, ki sa ki pral pase menm? Ki lè nou janm tande an Ayiti ke pitit boujwa pral marye ak restavèk? Eske sa janm fèt???
Nan tout ka sa yo, ki miyò solisyon an?
Anacaona, mwen sorry mwen ajoute tout kesyon sa yo sou tèt pwoblèm ou poze a. Men sa mwen vle fè nou wè la, sè ke pwoblèm sa se pa pwoblèm "zòt" li ye, se pwoblèm nou tout e solisyon yo pa fasil pou twouve.
Pwoblèm mwen genyen ak relijyon sèke pi souvan se pale anpil, men pa gen anpil bèl egzanp pou moun suiv.
Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:35 pm
Ou poze anpil kesyon e yo mande anpil refleksyon. Map jis di de timo sou kèk nan kesyon ke ou te poze yo.
Paran yo ki bay lèse pase pou mariaj fèt nan ka ke ti moun yo poko majè gen menm responsabilite avèk moun ki beni mariaj la. Sepandan, anpil fwa sak fè paran yo rive fè sa se pou sove la fas, ou byen pou yo ka kenbe ròl yo andedan legliz.
You bagay ke mwen konstate nan tout legliz mwen te konnen bò lakay mwen an Ayiti, depi you jèn fi ansent, paste legliz la rele komite legliz lan epi yo deside fè you reyinyon avèk moun ki ankoz yo epi yo mete yo dekote. Men, se pa sèlman met afè ki tonbe anba lwa. Nou jwenn paran yo ki, nou ta kapab di, pa genyen anyen pou yo wè nan sa ki pase tonbe anba lwa tou. Donk pou yo ka pase mwens tan san yo pa patisipe nan you seri de aktivite ann dan legliz la, yo pa gen lòt chwa ke propose mariaj, menm si mariaj la vle di ke travay yo pral ogmante ( i.e, okipe pitit, bofi, epi pitit
Gason ki fè zak la, ke l majè, kel pa majè, ou pa ka fòsel pran responsabilite. Si li menm li deside pran responsabilite, ou ka kitel fè sa anka ke fi ya dakò epi fòk fi ya majè tou. Menml si toude moun yo dakò pou sa fèt, m panse gen kèk analiz ki ta dwe fèt sitou bò lakay paran fi ya pou wè si gen mwayen pou timoun ki pral fèt la jwenn bon swen. Si sa pap ka rive fèt, vo mye paran yo reziye yo yo pran responsabilite timoun nan soukont yo paske rezilta mariaj sa yo pi souvan vle di ale pou you lane epi tounen avek de moun anplis. Men sak pi tris la sè ke se paran fi yo ki toujou viktim.
Si fi ya poko majè, daprè mwen menm, solisyon an se bay kadejakè ya prizon pou krim li komèt la.
Nan ka timoun nan genyen selman 12-14 lane sou tèt li, se a paranl de deside. Men mwen pa kwè avòtman se solisyon an. Mwen plis wè adopsyon, menm si adopsyon an vle di ke granparan yo ap adopte timoun nan. Antouka, mwen prefere di prevni gen plis vale pase geri.
Na kesyon ou yo, ou te ma
nde pou nou reflechi sou you bagay ki rive tou tan nan sosyete nou an. Ou te mande kisa ki pral pase le pitit you boujwa fe kadejaz sou you ti restavek, avek kisa dirijan legliz yo ap fè si se pitit yo ki tonbe nan move kou. Map kite nou ak de istwa ke mwen te tande. Youn te pase nan Gonayiv e lòt la te pase nan Pòtoprins.
Nan Gonayiv, gen you pastè ki pa janm gen lòt solisyon pou ansent san preparasyon ke mariaj. Epi li gen you pitit gasonl ki ansent you jenn fi nan legliz la. Fidèl legliz la kanpe yo mande mariaj paske se solisyon saa pastè ya toujou genyen pou pitit fidèl yo. Pastè ya kanpe akwa, lidi pitit li pap marye paske pitit li poko aprann metye. Epi kòm solisyon, li voye pitit gasonl pati. (Baton ki bat chen nwaa, pa bat chen blan toutan).
Nan Pòtoprins gen you lòt pastè, pitit gasonl ansent bòn nan. Msye, anpalan de pitit la di papal lap marye ak bòn nan. Papa a pa gen problèm paske solisyon saa te konn aplike pou lòt fidl legliz la. Se konsa, myse desidel lap marye ak bò
n nan. Msye gen you frèl avek you sèl ki kanpe ankwa pou mariaj la pap fèt. Etan done msye te deside poul marye avèk bòn nan, donk, mariaj la fèt.
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:25 am
[quote]E fi yo menm? Ki lè pou paran yo sispann trete yo kòm lasentvyèj epi pale ak yo kareman de sa yo gen pou fè pou evite pran gwòs nan men vagabon?[/quote]
Most parents of girls in Haiti usually repeat the same mistake over and over again without realizing that their parenting skills are not working. And I wish I could say that parents treat their girls as "lasentvyèj", but I can't.
Usually, what happen in Haitian families is that kids are being left alone to decided what's good and what's bad as if they were born with the answer. When things go wrong (usually because people are just staying stuff without any foundation), they get summoned to the court with mom/dad as judge and prosecutor. Kids get no defense atorney.
When they get to court, they have no chance of saying anything to defend themselves because the judge has already reach the verdict.
And they are guilty of all charges. As a result, they will hear all kind of things (bad words). When they get in that situation, one of two things may happen. They will either lose self-esteem/self-worth and start hating themselves for no reasons or they will retaliate. When they retaliate, the result may be good or bad.
In case that the end result is good, mom & dad think that it is because they have great parenting skills although. When it is bad, it's all the kids fault because they are great parents anyway.
With a "lasentvyèj" treatment, there wouldn't be the need to summon anyone to mom/dad court to hear any guilty verdict because they would trust their kids/girls, not what they hear in the air or what they assume.
There is an old saying "la fimen pa leve san dife" or "pousyè pa leve san van". But most of the times when parents hear things, there is no wind and no fire.
With all said, it is almost impossible in that case for parents to sit down with their
girls and talk to them about life. In order to have a good conversation, the party involved needs to be friend. But, some parents are not friend with their kids. Therefore, they can't exchange idea.
Let's just hope that the next generation of parents, who when they were kids hated the way their parents treat them make the change in mother-daughter's relationship, father-son relationship and parents-kids relationship.
I hope that I get my point across!
Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 1:20 am
Anacaona, I think that you got your point across very well. In fact, I do agree with what you had to say, except that we were probably thinking of two very different sets of circumstances. On one hand, some parents cannot imagine their children to be sexually active at a young age (and therefore they do not anticipate the need to talk to them about ways to effectively prevent pregnancy until it is too late) when the kids have already been at it for quite a while. On the other hand, like you say, some parents (perhaps remembering how "bad" they themselves were at an early age, suspect their children of doing it at every turn and never give them the benefit of the doubt. However, one thing we know for sure is that kids today are much more sex-aware than their parents were in preceding generations. It's too bad that awareness does not always walk hand in hand with wisdom, that is the abi
lity to make the right decisions.
No matter what the kids know, and sometimes they know more than we do, as parents we should never abdicate our responsibility to guide them through example and clear advice. In the Haitian community, as you explain, that presents a particular problem because traditionally parents cherish their authoritarian roles so much that it becomes often impossible for them to talk to their kids on a basis of trust, respect, love, and acceptance of their frailties and individual personality differences.
I know how hard this really is. I am a Haitian father, raising my children in the U.S. It's an extraordinary challenge... (sometimes I think how much less populated the world would be if people knew how much trouble they were in for when making love). But it's a challenge that can be met and that should be met wholeheartedly, since our children never asked to be born in the first place. A moment of pleasure... a lifetime of responsibility. But could we really ever do
without those moments of pleasure, intimacy, and abandon? Could we also do without loving and nurturing, and being loved and given reason to feel really proud about our children as they assume their own responsibilities in life? I hardly think so.
I think that the majority of us Haitians from the older generations have an experience of family life that predisposes us to an authoritarian or even quite adversarial attitude towards our children. But life is all about learning. Our children force us to re-evaluate everything we thought we knew about raising children. When we stop learning, that's when we get into trouble (because that's precisely the point when they stop listening as well).
[quote]Let's just hope that the next generation of parents, who when they were kids hated the way their parents treat them make the change in mother-daughter's relationship, father-son relationship and parents-kids relationship.[/quote]
Think about this: Our par
ents had the same hope, and their parents and grand-grand-grand-.....-grandparents before them. People have always been dissatisfied with the way they were raised, but then they are just as prone to make mistakes with their children as well. So let's turn that "hope for the next generation of parents" into an accomplishment in our own lives for ourselves. We do not have control over much else.
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:26 pm
This is a very interesting topic and I wanted to join in the discussions a while ago but was too busy. I read the reflexions of both Guy and Anacaona on the subject and agree with most of them.
Too many children are having children and too many pregnancies are "solved" by marriage. I would like to point out though that not all "restavek" have a teanage girl as mother. Some of them are born by two adults parents living together but who find themselves unable to take care of the children for one reason or another. Some of these parents are hard workers but in an unjust society their hard work cannot even feed them.
It's important to prevent children from being born into these conditions but it also important to protect every living child. A child deserves to live as a child. I believe that if someone cannot provide food, shelter, love and education to a child, he/she should not accept to take that child from his/her parents. Als
o our governments need to do more for our children. They are the future Haiti. It is the responsibility of our society to prevent those pregnancies and at the same time protect the children who are already victims or who may become victims. Doing one without the other won't solve the problem.
As Guy mentioned, parents need to talk to their children about sex and its consequences but I do not believe the talking should necessarily involve condoms. In my personal opinions, it depends on the family values. I was born and raised in a christian family. Where my parents did not talk to me about sexuality except in the way presented by Anacaona, and whereas I want to do a better job with my chidren (if and when I have), condoms don't have to be part of it. Why? because different families have different values. Nothing say that you should teach your child something that is against your values.
Christian families believe in abstinence before marriage and I believe that families educate their
children according to their values. I believe that parents can tell their children the truth about something within the context of their values. Of course it's up to the child to accept or reject it but the parents can expose it in a way they feel comfortable. Many of young christian people end up pregnant before marriage not because it is impossible to abstain but because they were presented with a distorted view of sexuality and they take the risk they find out what they were told were pure lies.
Am I saying that abstinence is the answer for everyone? Of course not. I can't force my beliefs or personal values down the throat of anyone. For some families, condoms, birth control pills etc may be what they want. It totally depends on what they believe.
What about public figures, what should they promote? I believe they should talk about all strategies because they are dealing with a variety of people. They should not go around preaching everybody abstinence when they know not every
one will follow it. Government ressources are for everybody, not a group of people who happen to have the same ideology as the ruling group. But education at the level of the family doesn't need to compromise any personal moral, ethical or religious values.
No matter what someone believes, he/she should not forget the same act that lead to pregnancy may also lead to numerous STD's including HIV?AIDS. It's bad enough when a 15 year-old girl is pregnant; it is even worse when she has an STD. It is bad when a non-married christian girl is pregnant it is even worse when she becomes HIV positive. When parents educate their children on the matter, they not only prevent unwanted pregnancies but also premature death. I doubt that many of those yound people do any background check on their partners or ask them to get tested before they get intimate.
So a lot is at stake. We know that for most poor people (thus, most of the infected), AIDS is like it was in the 80's. No treatment. And for th
ose, who can afford treatment, being positive is no cool either because the regiment has many side effects, not everybody can tolerate the medications, not everyone respond to them even if they tolerate them and resistance can emerge during the course of treatment. So an act can bring more than pregnancy if it is not done with responsibility.
And to go back to the first part of my discussion, The children who are already born into these conditions still need to be treated as any child would be.
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:15 pm
When I mentioned public figures in my post, I had that disturbing reality in mind. In the last two years, I have participated in some activities in order to raise money for people with AIDS in Africa and the Caribbean. I spend time thinking about the AIDS pandemic and what is being done about it. I find disturbing the condition imposed by the Bush administration for giving any financial help to a country to fight the deadly disease. I could imagine that American Churches would do the same but I did not know that the NGOs would do the same. I watch "A Closer Walk" by Robert Bilheimer several times and each time, I cry as if I personally knew the millions who are dying (children and adults alike) and the ones left orphan. It's true that I can put faces to some of the stories but I believe that would not be necessary to move my heart.
We may have different beliefs, values, practices, skin color but we are all human and
should care for one another. I really can't understand how someone can call him/herself christian (believing that the same God created us all) and do not seem to care when a fellow human being is suffering just because he doesn't believe what you believe. This is hypocrisy.
This thing is not just about AIDS. There is a very poor community in Haiti whose population has been forsaken for a very long time. Not too long ago, a clinic has been placed there and the clinic faces so many problems because of lack of money. A group of us have come together to see what we can do and we've been working on it for quite a while. One of the challenges we face is that we have to come up with a research project that is relevant to the funding group in order to get the funding that we need. (in order words the people have to let us study them if are going to bring help). These people face very basic needs. This is a very remote place with no running water. People depend on rain water or a river which is
2 hours away by donkey. When there is no water in a place (I do not even have to mention clean water), you are faced with all kinds of health problems but your so-called friend won't help unless you accept to be studied. I find it weird but what can I do? There is no fairness in this world.