Trusting a business in Haiti?

[Leonel Jean-Baptiste*]

Yesterday, I've received an email from a Haitian bank. Even though I see all the possibilities to investing in that bank, fear played a major factor... Then I am asking myself why is it that a lot of Haitians do not trust and cannot trust their Haitian brothers? I don't want to go back in history. But why not now?

When I look at other people, the Jewish population for instance, I bet that they have crooks like any other communities. But they still consume Jewish goods and services.

We (Haitian) all know that we need to support our businesses... We need to invest in our own market like other countries. But we still are not doing it. Is it self-hatred or is it lack of respect from businesses or consumers? Or anything else?

Please, let's discuss that topic. I think it is very important. Come with some suggestions: Guy, Marilyn, Jaf, Serge, Nekita etc. Everyone, I need help on that matter, cause I
am scared to invest in my native country.

leonel

[guysanto*]

<blockquote><b><p align=justify>Leonel, you have made some great general observations. Haiti (that is ALL OF HAITI, not just Port-au-Prince) needs our investments greatly, but there is no getting around the MISTRUST factor... or is there?

Coup d'etat after coup d'etat certainly does not help.

Criminal impunity certainly does not help.

Extraordinary greed and corruption certainly do not help.

Coexisting misery and opulence, along with a rampant I-don't-give-a-damn-as-long-as-I-make-money attitude certainly do not help.

The question I have is this: Are there vehicles for social investing in Haiti? That is, can anyone invest his/her hard earned dollars for profit, yet not assume excessive risk and with the confidence that such investments will contribute to the betterment of society and not to the aggravation of the social disparity?

What is a conscientious and socially-aware moneyed citizen to do?


Let's see if someone will come up with some good answers. I don't have the money nor the experience to provide such answers myself, but I offer to you a forum for just such purposes.

[JGPalmis*]

Here is what I think about the questions you raised here.

Even though you said you don't want to go back to history to find the clues about your questions. The answer to them cannot be put forth without a look back to the past. We all feel that corruption in Haiti is one of our major problem. That is the reason why, as Guy listed it in his post,

Coup d'etat after coup d'etat certainly does not help

Criminal impunity certainly does not help.

Extraordinary greed and corruption certainly do not help.

Coexisting misery and opulence, along with a rampant I-don't-give-a-damn-as-long-as-I-make-money attitude certainly do not help.

When one knows the major investors in the private banks in Haiti are these families who are behind the curtain pulling the ropes in the politic arena, I personally don't want to have my money used to support coup dEtat or any illegal business.

Sure we do have a pretty serious problem. It is more than what we see at the surface. Trustworthy relationship starts at home, neighborhood and communities. The values and principles transmitted to the kids in our family have to be checked. Brothers do no longer trust brothers, cousins, sisters, friends, neighbours. These are signs that we have a serious problem in our Society. Why?

Unfortunately my friend I do not have the answer to your questions but I do think we have to analyse all the banal & simple behaviours that we observe in the Haitian society to better understand why we cannot trust each other.

Let's hope that our sociologic gut will provide us some hypotheses to discuss about (corruption). If some sociologists want to participate that will be more than welcome.

[jafrikayiti*]

Onè fanmi yo,

My two cents on this important issue raised by Leonel.

Yes, investing in Haiti is possible. I have tried it with a small business in 1997 and I know for a fact that the possibilities offered by Haiti are even greater than what one can find in North-America. Why? Because you can start with very little investment and the growth takes place as early as the first 'december'. Of course, it depends on the type of business you invest in.

Now, why I am writing this while I am in Canada and not still in Haiti doing business? That's where Guy and Jude Gardy's interventions answer the question. Those of us in the diaspora do not have the strong roots that people like Brandt, Madsen, Apaid etc... have which allow them to stay in Haiti coup after coup after coup. Which is also why they don't mind investing in these activities. I saw it first hand last January 2004. While school was supposedly closed in Port-au-Prince
because of political unrest, at Kiskeya Christian school you could see dozens of mostly blond kids attending school in Delmas 75. The truth of the matter being that school closing occured not because it was unsafe to send the kids to school but, because the teachers (many of them middle class and ti bourgeoisie stuck-ups - modern day Affranchis) were turning the children home to score political points against the Aristide government (this, I also witnessed first hand for instance at Canado High School - which is no longer an upper class school by the way!).

So, at anytime, a dispora going back to do business in haiti might get trapped in these events of destabilisation organised sporadically by the irresponsible Port-au-Prince based oligarchy.

Because, not all of us going back to Haiti will want or be able to afford living up there in the mountains of Morne Calvaire and send our kids to study with the children of the French, American, Canadian, Spanish ....ambassadors and their friends the MRE
.

So, this means, going back is a heavy decision for our family.

As for investing in Promo this and that...I think Jude Gardy covered this quite well. Who owns these joint ventures? Do I really want to go to Haiti and trust my few dollars to these MREs that share nothing in common with me and my people?

Man, I think we need to find a solution to this problem - because I certainly do not intend to spend all my productive years and resources outside of Haiti. We have a lot we can and ought to contribute to our people. But, first we must reclaim our inheritance and assume the means to protect our investment in the land of Dessalines - yes the land of DESSALINES! That my friend can only happen through political empowerment. In Canada, there is a group of people who assume political power and protect their investment for their children (it doesn't matter how many immigrants they welcome among them, they still control the shop). Same thing in Europe, in the U.S., Australia etc.... The problem
with us Africans (Haitians included) is that we take things too lightly. We allow foreigners to control too much in our country. And so in December 2003 a white man named Hans Tippenhauer goes on live radio in Port-au-Prince and warns our elected president that it is time for him to step down. "Mwen di Aristide ban m peyi m !" (I say to Aristide leave me my country !) - thus spoke the man. And low and behold, months later Haiti's black president was taken by an army of white soldiers (U.S. Marines and others), put on a plane and shipped "back to Africa".

So, Leonel my brother, we have no excuse anymore. There are no "hidden hands" which stops you and I from investing in our country. They did everything IN OUR FACE. So now, what are going to do about it, that's the question.

I hate to be picking on my sister Nekita like this...but I suggest we do not pray about this problem also. Because as Beethova sings...se pennpèdi "god la bless amerikkka".


Jaf

[HenriD]

Dear Leonel,

While your question is highly pertinent, we may want to reflect on a deeper level as this issue is one subgroup of a more fundamental issue of mistrust in all things Haitian.

The lamentable fact is that we Haitians are mistrustful of everything: ourselves, our businesses, our institutions, our politicians, our governments.

We seem to be unable to distinguish what is valid and valuable and discount every person, group and effort as one more suspicious thing we need to sniff at and sniff out till we discover the hidden flaw. We are generally pessimistic rather than optimistic or idealistic. Our idealism is generally virtual leading to little action as we think ourselves doomed to failure at each and every attempt. It is a well known social fact that we produce what we expect.

This vicious cycle leads to what is called in personal and group psychology as "learned hopelessness".

This is a well known and documented concept discovered by the eminent social researcher Martin Seligman.

You can learn a great deal about this phenomenon by going to www.google.com and typing in the four words: martin seligman learned helplessness. You will recognize much of what is in play in our individual and collective mental culture.

One of the chatracteristics of this phenomena is well explained by the following excerpt

<quote>

Under the influence of this negative thinking, our logic fails us. For example, we jump to conclusions, look at only one detail and disregard the big picture, overgeneralize from one experience, magnify our faults and minimize our achievements, and take the blame. All of this adds a very dark and gloomy shadow over our mental life.

<unquote>

There are good reasons grounded in historical fact why as Haitians we react in these manners.

There is the equally indisputable fact that "we produce what we expect".

Perhaps one day we will expect to be winners rather than losers, successes rather than victims, trustworthy rather than suspicion worthy.

As in all things analytical it is about education, maturity, logic and getting beyond the myths and learned hopelessness of our current culture to look at the facts and evidence.

While facts and evidence can be twisted to resemble something they are not, most of the time if you do the research and have a reasonably logical and open mind you see exactly what is what.

As CEO of the Bank in question above I know two things:
1) The mailing sent included a link which leads to the page where the shareholders names are listed
2) That the vast majority of people on that list have demonstrated over time and again and again over the years in public and private spaces their trustworthiness.

Trust is built by trusting and receiving in return the evidence that the person or thing trusted deserves our trust. We do not need anyone to trust us, what we would hope is that people see us as we really are versus how they would like us to seem for their own mental needs.

Knowledge is built by getting to the bottom of matters rather than skimming across the surface and jumping to the conclusions we want because of our need to reinforce a self-fulfilling mental concept.

In this case our need to see the bogeyman once again so we can say "see, I told you so, this is another one of those scams" may outweigh our ability to trust. Quite understandable but useless. What is useful is exploring, learning, seeing the facts, putting the facts to use constructively.

Well as strange as it may seem, some people in Haiti and elsewhere do actually put their idealism to work on practical things in practical ways.

Whether they succeed or not is a matter no one can predict. What we can predict is that if we expect to fail we will.

In our small corner of the part of the world we call Home, we hope to succeed.

Is that important?

How many times must we lose to prove the hypothesis of "learned hopelessness", before we decide the time to fail has passed, the time to be victims has passed, the time to lament individually and collectively has passed, and been replaced by the time to win, the time to overcome and the time to praise.

That is an individual and collective decision.

I for one am hopeful we will get beyond ourselves as individuals and as a collective and start to build the future rather than on one hand glorify and on the other lament our past.

No one cares.

What is expected of authentic mature autonomous adults in this world is solutions, the problems are there for all to see. We may want to be looking for solutions and PromoCapital is no doubt more a solution than a problem.

No need to panic. Use your eyes, ears and intelligence. Do your research and come to a logical conclusion. Then you will see who and what we are and what we hope to accomplish.

Of course the choice to discover what each and every person has done wrong
is an inalienable right, sometimes the right way to approach a matter is to see what each and every person has done right. Everything is about averages because you, me and everyone in this world I have met has both done wrong and right things.

We are better served by focusing on the value of people to accomplish, rather than on their capacity to fail. That is a choice, both approaches produce the results expected, the fundamental question is: what do we prefer, the choice is ours.

As a born and bred bourgeois "white slave master exploiter of the people" I always find amazing the myth when compared to the realities. It really does remind me of the myths of ogres and monsters I used to read to my children at bedtime. As they matured they learn to read and understand more complex issues in a deeper way. People and groups are rich, diverse and complex. Labels are simple and often useless. They are a shortcuts to avoid arduous and serious thinking. We can continue to brandy our myths or become more m
ature and realize that in this world, people are people and their motivations a mix of the selfish versus the altruistic, giving versus taking. Anytime you define a group by one concept you are innately wrong because life is about so much more than one thing.

I see in another posting that we are "putschist". To demonstrate let us review but one myth and lay it to rest. I personally was detained at Port-au-Prince Airport and my passport confiscated on my way to Europe because I was against the coup d'etat and on an "interdiction de depart" list in retribution after the US Government had revoked visas of the haitian military. Not that I had any great love for Aristide, but I did believe he deserved the benefit of the doubt. I do not see why this would confer to me any righteous and noble label because simply stated: perhaps I was right perhaps I was wrong. To this day I do not know and to pretend I did would be the epitome of righteous arrogance based on my needs rather than the facts. What I do know is
what I believe in and what those beliefs convert to in terms of actions on a case by case basis. In fact most of the shareholders of PromoCapital worked intensively to secure Aristide's return after the coup d'etat. I am sure they do not know today any better than I if they were right or wrong. They simply did what they believed to be right.

If we are to define our futures on simple concepts and single issues then we are doomed to fail at the start because in the world I know: very few things are black or white, very few people are good or bad, very few groups worthy of blind trust and none of blind suspicion.

In reading this any person here has a choice: stick a label and beat the label with a stick or do some hard thinking. Some will perhaps attempt to demonstrate their hard thinking by becoming social detectives and finding every flaw, when in fact they are only looking for the evidence to justify their preconceived myth. Many prefer to see things as they wish them to be rather than how they are. Present company not excluded. That is always a function of our capacity for rational thought so I fully expect both approaches in my own posting and in the postings to follow. That's life, what can I tell you.

Best Regards,

Henri Deschamps
CEO
PromoCapital
http://www.promocapital.us

[Serge Bellegarde*]

Salitasyon pou tout kanmarad sou fowòm lan,

Mon chè Leonel,

Ou vini ak yon gwo kesyon la, yon kesyon ki pou mwen, mande pou nou fè yon analyz kal pi fon toujou. Kanmarad Henrid pale sou yo, men vreman mwen kwè fòk nou fouye pi lwen nan listwa pou nou ka eseye konpran poukisa nou blije ap mande kesyon sa yo, poukisa nou ka pè envesti konsa nan peyi lakay ou, aloske nan pwen pèp nasyonalis konsa tankou Ayisyen. Si nou vle gade, se youn nan bagay ki ka parèt pi gwo kontradiksyon nan nou menm e mwne sèten ou menm ak plizyè lòt kanmarad dwe kontre etranje ki pa konpran pasyon nou pou peyi nou lè yap gade kouman yap mete makak sou nou konsa.

Mwen pa gen pretansyon pote solisyon nan pwoblèm sa non, map senpman eseye bay kèk esplikasyon nan pèspèktiv sou rezon ki fè nou gen kalite pwoblèm sa nan peyi Dayiti.

Mwen tap di piwo ke nou fèt pou fouye pi fon toujou nan listwa nou. Sa mwen vle di, se ke nou gen yon seri pratik ak
estrikti nou erite e ki pa janm gen tan devlope lakay nou, Ajoute sou sa yon seri politisyen ki pa janm enterese atake vre pwoblèm pèp la, epi ou vin gen yon resèt pou katastròf. Yon lòt bagay pou nou remake tou, se ke nou erite yon lelit ki anjeneral antinasyonal e ki pa janm enterese envesti vreman pou tabli bon jan enfrastrikti nan peyi a. Se pa joure map joure la, men map fè yon konstatasyon ki evidan pou tout moun. Nan kondisyon sa yo, sa nou rele enfrastrikti nou an devlope ak yon pakèt twou ladan, ousman li pat egziste ditou. Bagay yo pa fonksyone jan yo ta dwe fonksyone : lè gen yon prezidan ki monte, fòk li kraze tou sa ki te la anvan li. Kididonk, se yon pèpetyèl rekomansman. E evenman 29 fevriye a pa chanje sa ditou. Malgre tou sa zòt ka di, gen de bagay ki te fèt sou Gouvènman Aristid la ki te ka kontinye, men, etandone se tou sa ki gen mak Aristide sou li pou yo kraze, yap kraze, epi nap rekomanse ankò.

Pou mwen menm, se sityasyon sa ki fè Ayisyen devlope santiman lapè lè yap pale envest
isman. Mete sou sa konbyen fwa nan dyaspora yon ranmase lajan pou pwojè epi anyen pa janm fèt, lajan disparèt epi tout bagay kaba. Malgre sa, na sezi wè konbyen Ayisyen kap envestsi kanmenm, menm si se ak kè sote. Nan kontèks sa, boujwazi a ki kontwole ekonomi a gen anpil anpil egzamen pou li fè sou tèt li tou. Si yo te aji yon lòt jan, si yo te panse yon lòt jan, gen anpil bagay kit ta fèt pi byen nan peyi a. Henrid byen pale lè li di : "There are good reasons grounded in historical fact why as Haitians we react in these manners…” Nou tout Ayisyen nou gen reskonsabilite nou anvè peyi nou, men sa ki gen kontwòl politik ak ekonomik gen plis reskonsabilite pou asire gen bagay ki dwe fèt jan yo dwe fèt la, sou baz prensip ak règ. Pou pran yon egzanp, gade ki kalite manman FAYIT (mwen blije itilize lèt majiskil) nap asiste nan klas politik la ak klas entelektyèl nou an. Tou sa kontribye pou fè nou pi pentad toujou e pou nou pa gen konfyans.

Bon, lè mwen fin di tou sa, e apre ? Nan lespri pa mwen, mwen k
wè sèl vre solisyon an, malgre tout fikilte, tout magouy, tout opozisyon andedan peyi a, pa gen lòt opsyon ke pou nou tout envesti jan nou kapab nan peyi a. Li ka nan bank, li ka nan yon lòt bagay, men fòk nou rive depase sityasyon kontradiksyon sa kote nou pare pou fanm fwa yon moun kap pale peyi nou mal, epi nou gen santiman lapè sa nan kè nou ki anpeche nou envesti nan peyi. Si se pa sa, kouman nap fè pou Ayiti soti nan twou li ye a ? Jan Jaf di, envesti nan peyi Dayiti , se yon bagay ki posib e mysye esplike poukisa. Se pa ke pa gen danje, men se sèl jan pou nou « reclaim our inheritance » jan Jaf di a. Pi gwo pwoblèm lan, fòk nou rive gen yon strateji sou anpil tan ki pou pèmèt peyi kapab gen enfrastrikti ki pou sèvi pèp ayisyen. Gen nèg nan lelit la ki gen konsyans sosyal sa e ki gen yon lòt vizyon de ki jan pou bagay yo fèt nan peyi a.

Leonel, youn nan kalite pou nou menm Ayisyen devlope, se pasyans, pasyans, pasyans e aji ak mens emosyon. Map ba w ou egzanp pèsonèl. Nou gen kay fanmi nou nan
peyi a ke nou te mete nan lwaye. Gen preske de lane lokatè a refize peye lwaye a. Misye te konpran ke paske nou lòt bò dlo, nap dekouraje e lap tou pran kay la, tankou sa rive anpil Ayisyen ki gen tè ousman kay, epi kap viv lòt bò dlo . Lokatè a te menm pare pou vann kay ak yon enjenyè! Sa nou fè, nou pran yon avoka epi nou menen nèg la devan lajistis. Wi, lajistis sa ki tèlman pap fonksyone lakay nou. Kididonk, ak anpil pèseverans ak pasyans, nou wè zafè 29 fevriye pase, dilatwa ak magouy nèg la fè. Finalman, gen twa mwa nou resi chase misye nan kay la, LEGALMAN. Mwen bay egzanp sa pou montre ke mwen menm, mwen kwè nou paka pèdi lespwa, malgre tou sa w tande. Se menm bagay pou zafè envestisman yo. Nou fèt pou fè atansyon anpil, men nou fèt, sa ki kapab yo, pou nou envesti, men pandan nap envesti a, se pou nou ensiste pou nou gen tout enfòmasyon nan kisa nap envesti, ki objektif, ki regleman ki genyen pou jere envestisman yo, e jan Jaf di a, fòk chak moun deside pou tèt pa li nan kisa li vle envesti, elatriye
. Leonel, se pa yon desizyon ki fasil, se yon desizyon ki gen anpil dan ladan, men mwen kwè vre kesyon, se pa SI nou vle envesti non, se KI JAN e NAN KISA, nan KI KONDISYON e ak KI MOUN.

Kenbe fèm !.

[jafrikayiti*]

Wow ! Li ta, dòmi nan je m. Men mwen pa ka reziste. Serge monchè ou di nannan koze a. E fòk mwen di ou onètman, pou jan ou rantre kòmantè sa a an Kreyòl la a, mwen santi tout bon vre sa a se yon diskisyon ki ta dwe fèt an Kreyòl. Paske se yon koze fanmi k ap pale la a tout bon vre. Gen anpil koze ki merite di sou dosye sa, pou yo ta di byen epi ak vizyon "gerizon" fòk se nan sèl lang ki simante nou tout ansanm nan pou nou ta di yo. M ap tounen sou sa pi douvan....

Now, since the discussion began in English let me share just a few words in English about Henrid's statement.

1) I find it courageous and logical of Henri Deschamps to assume his responsibility as CEO of the Promocapital initiative to address the issue here. God (or should I say Osiris or Verondadèk) only knows how many times on this very forum, other public figures had their initiatives questioned and they simply feigned not to notice.

2) I will come back another
time to address the issues of psychology raised in Henri Deschamps' message. But for now, i want to say that the main and major difficulty this initiative poses for me, is the list of people presented as partners and their public stances taken about the majority of the Haitian population's right to self-govern. Stances that go completely contrary to their claim of being Haitian (ban m peyi m !). Well maybe I am still addressing psychology without wanting to do so...

I really must go to bed now but, let me share with you an exchange I had with one of the people listed as Partner of the promoCapital initiative over a year ago. We were not discussing PromoCapital but the Group 184 and its so-called new Social Contract .

Then, I wrote and now I still say about the G 184 which is so prominently represented in PromoCapital.

<b>If indeed you are a very concerned citizen who loves Haiti AND the Haitians that live in it as well as those that live with it, you must also underst
and that we cannot continue with the same old pattern of denying the people the right to self-government.

For more than 12 years now, this people have been struggling to find for herself a worthy set of industrial and political leaders who are enlightened enough to understand that the people rather than representing a threat to their privileges are the cornerstone of our collective wellbeing. Continuing to deny the people their full access to citizenship will always lead to the so-called elite losing access to her peace of mind.

For more than 12 years, those with access to economic and political power have been resisting this simple and loud cry for a paradigm shift. While the so-called Haitian elite has failed miserably in her mission, instead of working hard to fix the mess it has created, it is punishing the people because they have had the nerve to demand positive CHANGE in the nation.

Folks like Jacques Roumain, Antoine Izmery, Guy Malary, Jean Dominique understood the need to ac
complish this shift. Unfortunately the lack of courage and creativity of the vast majority of this tiny club of privileged folks has allowed the efforts of these few good "elite" Haitians to go almost completely to waste.

Haiti cannot go back to the years of Elie Lescot or Louis Borno. Neither will the camouflaged apartheid being promoted in the country be ever espoused by the majority. So, please, wake up and face the reality that we must work together towards a social peace that seats on social justice rather than exclusion, harrassment or boykot.

Yes, mister X this is how I perceive the actions of your group. Because it helps maintain the makeshift "crisis" that Jesse Helms and his boys want to have in the country for as long as their own pick has not entered the national palace.

184 promotes exclusion by endorsing the pretentious epithet of "representative civil society" which the U.S. administration and the rest of the white supremacist machinery is using at the OAS to justify u
ndoing the vote of the people - i.e excluding the majority !

You know full well that your group DOES NOT speak for anyone other than its members. The nation has spoken at elections. Happy or not with the results, all Haitians must accept them and move on with life. Just as America has moved on with life. Although, in the case of Haiti, it was predictable who was going to win the elections no matter what, while in the U.S., the election irregularities had obvious impact on the eventual outcome.

So what is it that justifies your fixation on denying the elected president to opportunity to finish his term in peace?

I consider that 184 promotes harrassment because while your sons, daughters, nieces and nephews continue to go shool, university etc...those of the majority of the population are losing whole years of schooling because of the makeshift crisis you are helping to sustain. Your call to marches and strikes which unlike those conducted in Venezuela for similar reasons, do not affect
your children, but they do constitute a source of great mental and economic harrassment to those who do not possess your type of financial security net. They rely on the remittances coming from us, the Haitians living with Haiti outside of Haiti.

So mister X to love Haiti must also mean loving Haiti's Haitians. From the Machann Chabon that services your kitchen to your own children. And yes, her vote is equal to yours on election day.

Therefore, may I suggest that the new social contract your group is branding around should start with a simple gesture on the part of the various privileged groups that continue to hold the nation hostage:

A formal, public vow to let the president elected by the people finish his term in peace.

My comment about presidential candidate may not apply to you but it may apply to your colleague Andre Apaid, Olivier Nadal or any other among the Haitian economic clan that may have legitimate aspirations to become president in our country. My point is not
whether you have the right to your full citizenship, it is that to become Haitian president should not be based on whether those in power in the U.S.A or the occupants of the U.S. embassy in Port-au-Prince consider someone "fit" by criteria that are for the very least very strange.

Mwen swete ke alèkile, ou konprann preyokipasyon mwen yo pi byen konpatriyòt.

Respè

From: X
To: jafrikayiti@hotmail.com

Monsieur St-Vil,
Just wanted to tell you that I am not in any way a presidential candidate, and that I am just a very concerned Haitian citizen, tired of seeing a country that could progress and where all men could be brothers, going down the trash. I am sure you must be feeling the same way when you look at your country, if you dare live in it everyday and try to help your fellow citizen on a daily basis. I am convinced that united we stand.

Cordially, X

Yes, I will invest in Haiti. Yes, i will "dare"
live in Haiti again. But, I do believe that everyone is always wise to choose his business partners among people he can trust - based on the facts not emotions.

Oh yes...I received a private message informing me that M. Hans Tippenhauer is not white. So I stand corrected. But, I am sure many still consider the statement odd and insulting that a man (Haitian or not) named Hans Tippenhauer should demand that another who is the president duly elected by the people of Haiti "Ban m peyi m!". I'd be danmed to see Angelik Kidjo or Yannick Noah tell Jacques Chirac "Ban m peyi m!".

Kenbe fèm !

Jaf

[Leonel Jean-Baptiste*]

WOW!

Isn't dialogue a great step forward?

First, I have to say that I applaud HenriD for participating in a positive way.

I am learning everyday here at WOH. I would like to see more people taking part on that subject. I agree with all of you, Jaf, Guy, Serge, HenriD etc...

We all have a lot of things in common and most of all, we all love Haiti.

Although I know that investing in any business is a RISK, I've wanted us to emphasize more on the mistrusting among Haitians...

For instance, what Serge described earlier, I've known people investing in Real Estate in Haiti which resulted at their death. Personally, I know at least three people.

I've heard about COOPERATIVE which I have no idea what was it about. But a lot of people lost money. And so on and so forth.

I believe that we all have some freightening stories about investing or buying in our homeland. My question again, can that alone
stop us?

We have a country which is travelling five hundred miles per hour towards "Sous-developpement". And, as Jaf stated, We are in the same boat (elite, working class and masses). We all can perish together. We are not immuned against environmental disasters or DISEASES etc...

Therefore, working together and trusting one another would be the ideal remedy for our Haiti. How can we start trusting then?
Remember, it's impossible to live in the past. This can keep us down.

We must start investing in our Communities, and Serge, Patience is a wise word. But,can we really afford to wait while it's Late moins le quart?

And HenriD, I agree with you that we should not base our judgement without evidence. But, when "Chat pran nan dlo cho, li pE menm dlo frEt".

For all of you, it is very positive, every sector or spectrum can be represented, and present his views. For the sake of Haiti, We all need that.

L'union Fait la Force
Leonel Jean-Baptiste
Denmark

[Serge Bellegarde*]

Kanmarad Leonel,

Yes, dialogue is a great step forward and you know what, this is one positive which came out of the last 4 years of political turmoil in Haiti. Can you picture, under the Duvalier regime or the military regime, members of the Government's political party in power having to sit down, even under duress, with the opposition parties and negotiate back and forth, signing agreement, holding continuous protests and a partisan press blasting away at the Government? They would be six feet under or in exile. We all need to take note note of what can be possible in Haiti with patience and perseverance. That is why I advocate patience sometimes, of course with varying degrees, according to the situation. I agree with you that we cannot wait too long, lest we "tounen pwa tan!".

Bon kite mwen repran bwa kreyòl mwen, paske sa pèmèt mwen fè bren mwen travay pou m pale de koze ki mande pou pale ak presizyon.

Jaf, mwen da
kò avèk ou anpil lò wap pale kouray Henri Deschamps genyen pou di bagay yo klè. Mwen toujou di ke pou rezoud yon pwoblèm, fòk ou admèt dabò gen yon pwoblèm ki ekziste. Sa sanble yon nèg ki onèt ak tèt li e se sa nou bezwen nan peyi a. Men gen yon bagay ou di nan ti mesaj ou a ki se gwo rezon ki fè nou manke konfyans nan yon seri inisyativ ki ta fèt pou ede peyi nou kare bare.

Ou di : "God (or should I say Osiris or Verondadèk) only knows how many times on this very forum, other public figures had their initiatives questioned and they simply feigned not to notice". Pi lwen, ou ajoute: " ...the main and major difficulty this initiative poses for me, is the list of people presented as partners and their public stances taken about the majority of the Haitian population's right to self-govern. Stances that go completely contrary to their claim of being Haitian..."

Efektivman, se youn nan gwo pwoblèm lan e sou menm woulib la, se youn nan gwo pwoblèm konsyans Leonel, mwen menm, ou menm ak anpil lò
t ka genyen yon lè ousman yon lòt: yon inisyativ ki gen tout valè li, epi se yon nèg ki pa gen kredibilite, oubyen mwen ta di pito, yon nèg ki manke konviksyon ak entegrite, kap prezante li. E ki pi rèd, wap jwen de nèg ki gen entegrite kap sipòte inisyativ sa ki sanse bay travay, menen envestisman nan peyi, elatrye. Se pa ti pwoblèm sa kreye! Mwen kwè se nan sityasyon sa anpil nan nou jwen tèt yo pafwa.

Se poutèt sa mwen tap pale nan mesaj mwen de "FAYIT" klas politik la ak klas entelektyèl la. Politisyen nou yo, malgre tout diplom yo, fè pi mal pase ti Ayisyen nan lari a kap goumen pou yon lavi miyò. Entelektyèl nou yo ap ponpe liv sou liv, men lè yo foure kò yo nan politik, deklarasyon yap fè, ou blije mande tèt ou si se anba ban yo te chita lekòl!. Poukisa? paske pa gen vizyon, pa gen konviksyon.

Kididonk, lè se moun sa yo, jan Jaf di, kap parèt tankou patnè nan inisyativ sa yo, sa fè nou refleshi anpil anpil sou validite ak seryozite inisyativ sa yo.

Men koulye a, lòt bò meday la,
se ki jan pou nou reyaji? Eske nap twipe yo kareman, ousman eske nap fonse tèt bese? Jan mwen te di a, mwen pa kwè mwen gen solisyon pou sityasyon sa non, men sa map di, se ke gen yon reyalite nou pa fouti mete sou kote: 1) si nou vle peyi nou vanse, fòk se nou menm ki envesti, paske nou wè se pa blan ki pwal fè sa pou nou. Okontrè, blan pwal enpeche w envesti, li pwal enpoze w yon modèl ekonomi, tou sa poul kapab kontwole w pi byen; 2) nou fèt pou egzije bon jan kontwòl sou tip envestisman yo envite nou fè, ousman ke nap pran inisyativ fè, pou nou gen bon jan aksè a tout kalite enfòmasyon nou ka bezwen; 3) e sitou, nou menm ki gen pwoblèm ak moun kap pran inisyativ sa yo, se pou nou fè jefò nou pou nou menm pran inisyativ pa nou pou nou envesti nan sektè ki enterese nou, yon jan pou kreye yon lòt nouvo klas antreprenè pi jen, pi konsyan, pi pwogresis e pi anakò ak aspirasyon pèp peyi Dayiti. Mwen ka petèt twò ideyalis ousman mwen ka pa viv ase lontan pou mwen wè kreyasyon nouvo klas sa, men se taka yon ja
n pou tabli yon lòt mantalite nan peyi a ki va pèmèt li devlope tout bon.

Kenbe fèm!.

[Frantz*]

Henri,
Bon mwen pa kwe l two ta pou m antre nan echanj sa. Pou komanse , fo m di w ke m pa genyen pwoblem ak sa w di yo. M konsidere efo sa kap fet lan kom yon premye nan mond biznis lakay nou.

Sepandan komante ke Serge fe yo genyen tout vale l nan realite ke nap viv jodi a. Dako, nou vle kraze tabou sa, men li pa fasil ditou pou n mete l sou kote. Kidonk kesyon "TRUST" ke Leonel soulve a tre serye, paske li se yon gwo andikap pou anpil fre ak se AYsyen ki ta vle envesti nan peyi yo. Nou pa ka souzestime l e nou pa ka nonplis meprize l si se tout bon nap pale de envestisman nan peyi pa nou.

La perez ke n genyen, seke nou pat janm genyen yon model devan nou pou n swiv esesi depi 1804. Se te toujou yon ti klik ki tap fe komes, ki jiskaprezan ap fe komes e ki pa janm vreman we pilwen ke pwent nen yo asavwa antrepann yon lot tip de eksperyans tankou sa w komanse a ak Promobank lan.

Kidonk envesti an Ayiti, pou no
u , mande anpil refleksyon. Yon nonm paret ou jan pentad le yon propozisyon de envestisman vini sou nou soti lakay. Andotremo pratik envesti sa pat egziste nan sans nou aprann li deyo a. Pa egzanp nan lis moun ki envesti nan PromoBank, m rekonet moun ladan yo ke m te ankouraje patisipe apre ke m te fin li tout "disclosure" yo ki te alapote yo. Enben, m ka di w ke premye reaksyon yo te: "Eske m panse se yon bagay serye? eske yo dwe pran chans? " M te konprann reaksyon yo e poukisa yo te PEUR antre nan bagay Aysyen .

Kidonk , mo TRUST sa se yon realite , se ak anpil travay serye selman ke li a fini fe plas a yonm lot mo" CREDI. Setadi nou pap femen je n , nou pap fe moun konfyans aveg, men nap ankouraje Aysyen fe lot aysyen CREDI defason pou nou tout soti nan trou ignorans lan.

Ou ka remake m pa rantre nan aspe politik lan. M kwe Guy te poze kesyon supebman byen e Jaf te brose yon realite ke n pa ka nonplis sousestime.
Kenbe la
Padel

[HenriD]

Hi Padel,

I understand the problem and it is real and legitimate. I simply prefer looking for solutions.

I do not have any brilliant insights into what those solutions are other than in business which is the field in which I work and where I can always try to claim some expertise. I just know it is a better choice to look at how something can be done, which supposes you take into consideration all the needs, including the mistrust needs, vs reapeating the well known litany and lamentations about what is wrong and always has been. Do we honestly think everyone does not yet know what our problems are? Do we really need to define them in terms of what some subgroup of each of us has done wrong? What is the value of blame in today's fast moving world. I have the feeling by the time we find out who is to blame and denounce them, there is a whole new set of persons to blame. I guess by creating labels we create shortcuts. If I defin
e a whole class by a derogatory label, then I don't have to do the homework, all new members that fit my definition of the label are the same garbage. It's very french-like, this great need to lay blame. While the french culture has much to be proud of that is one they can lose in their toolbox. As can we. I also understand that people have a legitimate need to lament. I think we are too much like that. In my experience the wailing wall is not in Israel, it is in Haiti. How much can be built through wailing? I am not so sure it works.

Not that I don't understand or feel that pain, I think we need to take our courage and "ramase karaktè n" to see how to get beyond those things. Why? Because it is essential. There are a great many books written about trust and its key place in all things human, including business.

The way trust is created is by people receiving the results they are promised and expect. That sounds simple but means a lot of things. In the big things it means human rights, it mea
ns a personal and collective culture where contracts of all types are respected, in the small things it means when you turn on the light switch the light goes on, when you get to the corner the traffic light works.

There is an excellent book on the subject written by Francis Fukuyama who wrote "The End of History". That book is called "Trust: The Social Virtues and The Creation of Prosperity". It analyzes high versus low trust societies and explains why they exist, what they create and what can be done. Basically he says what we all know intuitively: that trust permits everyone to function with everyone else, the more trust the less friction and the higher the speed. In other words, If you are on a highway and everybody is weaving in and out of lanes you have to slow down or face the consequences. If you are on a road where everybody has agreed to the rules and respects them we all move faster with less mayhem. If you have planes landing and taking off on that highway your problem is increased exponent
ially.

<quote>

Challenging orthodoxies of both the left and right, Fukuyama examines a wide range of national cultures in order to divine the underlying principles that foster social and economic prosperity. Insisting that we cannot divorce economic life from cultural life, he contends that in an era when social capital may be as important as physical capital, only those societies with a high degree of social trust will be able to create the flexible, large-scale business organizations that are needed to compete in the new global economy.

A brilliant study of the interconnectedness of economic life with cultural life, Trust is also an essential antidote to the increasing drift of American culture into extreme forms of individualism, which, if unchecked, will have dire consequences for the nation's economic health.

<unquote>

At the risk of sounding like a bullshitter, let me just say it is something I personally believe in relatively strongly. Not because I am
some great moralist but because I believe in practical things. Trust makes the world go round and the absence of trust brings things to a standstill. Trust is better for people when it can be created and maintained. And to the extent anyone manages to live up to their standards we certainly try our best. I have noticed in business trust is the most important asset. As a person I think it is important as well because it seems fairer. We should have have our rights, persons and spaces respected.

Where does trust come from, from trusting and having our trust respected. That does not mean anyone should leap into anything, much less investments without both eyes wide open. Not because everyone is a crook, but because even honest people blow it very regularly.

As a matter of fact when we were designing and building PromoCapital that was a major consideration. My feeling is that the truth is better than fiction and we attempt to describe the truth to our investors. We are not looking for investors in t
he general public so please keep in mind I have no need to sell you or anyone anything.

Among things that create trust in the financial world are being an open book, revealing through disclosures the risks, assuring the proper governance structures, doing the audits, and very often looking at people's past performance.

I think that is why I dislike character assasination so much. It reduces someone's whole life with all its struggles to a few simple phrases like "Tilolit", MRE, Blanc, Nigger. How can an acronym replace a person or a whole group of persons. Are we not all individual people each with our qualities and weaknesses. Acronyms while sometimes a useful starting place are always wrong in fact because people and things are generally so much more complex.

In any case, anyone investing in anything has to do a lot of homework unless they are willing to part with their hard earned money, be it to fools, crooks or honest people who have blown it.

The world is full of risks and
nothing beats education, knowledge, experience, research, serious thinking. In my opinion, when you add ethics into the mix, you more often win than lose. And if you lose you at least fought the right battle.

Take care,

Henri

[Frantz*]

Henri,

Well, well, well! It's good to know that you are fully aware of the TRUST problem. It is also great to learn that you are a man of action who prefers "looking for solutions". Guess what? We are not that far apart on this one. We are also "looking for solutions" but with caution using past experiences and of course constructive criticism.
And you are damn right: The "wailing wall" is surely in HAITI. Eh! wi, fok nou ranmase karakte n”.

In your response you quoted Francis Fukuyama:
''..... Insisting that we cannot divorce economic life from cultural life, he contends that in an era when social capital may be as important as physical capital, only those societies with a high degree of social trust will be able to create the flexible, large-scale business organizations that are needed to compete in the new global economy. "

Hum!! We have some concerns
here! This may not totally apply to Haiti.

We will rather INSIST on SEPARATING [for awhile] the economic life from the cultural life.

Let’s face it, Haiti didn’t move one inch forward since 1806. The economic structure inherited from France is still in place. From one side, we have the land owners, the commerce and very few industries owned by a small percentage of individuals. From the other, we have close to 80% percent living in poverty, uneducated and unskilled.

For two hundred years, we coexist but not living. Pito nou divose kit nou remarye pi devan. Something has to be done.

I think that we are heading in the right direction. That is to your credit and all of those who sponsored PromoCapital should be proud of their contributions. The creation of PromoCapital is simply a PREMIERE. To my knowledge, it is the first time the business community [the elite - I don’t mean it in derogatory term] is trying to do something different. The busi
ness is there for anyone who‘s able to meet certain criteria to chip in.

Boy! It’s no longer the same old small group [elite].

The economic life, here, is moving and well ahead of our cultural life.

TRUST building process in under way!

Thanks, Leonel! Yep! Let’s get down to business!

Kenbe fem!

padel

[FonkozeUSA]

I've joined this very interesting discussion a little late but hope that I can make a worthwhile contribution nonetheless.

Many of you know of Fonkoze, Haiti's largest microfinance institution. We have 20 branches throughout the country with over 24,000 loan clients who have loans that average less than $190. Our clients are 96% women, the majority of whom live in rural areas below the poverty line. Our clients also repay their loans; last year we wrote off less than 1% of our loan portfolio due to defaults. In addition to loans we provide our clients with a safe place to deposit their money, change their money from dollars to gourdes, and receive international money transfers from their families overseas.

I feel that some of the topics raised in this discussion such as trust and socially responsible investing are principles that our organization are based upon.

Our lending model is based on trust. Our clients self-select themselves and the other members of their group of 5. We do not take hard collateral but clients provide social collateral by vouching to repay the loans of their fellow members should they fall into repayment difficulty. Our clients thus trust each other and we are able to trust our clients. And, as our repayment record shows, our clients have certainly proven trustworthy.

In terms of socially responsible investing, Fonkoze USA gives US investors the opportunity to invest in their investment notes. By investing, these investors earn a small rate of return (up to 3%) and have a huge impact on the lives of the rural citizens of Haiti. The investments are channeled to Haiti and then used to provide loans to our clients. To date, Fonkoze USA has remained in good standing with all of its investors, paying interest in a timely fashion and returning investment funds as our investors require. A full disclosure statement can be downloaded from our website at www.fonkoze.org.

Also, many of you may have heard that Fonkoze recently spun off its profitable branch offices and operations into a for profit institution known as Fonkoze Financial Services. US and European investors (motivated by social and financial returns) invested $1.95 million (a mix of long-term debt and equity) in this institution. This demonstrated to us that there are people out there who believe in Haiti and the work we do.

Unfortunately, there are no local Haitian investors although we are in discussions with one institution at the moment. This in itself would be an interesting discussion. Despite the foreign investment, through a unique capitalization structure, Fonkoze Financial Services remains a majority Haitian owned institution.

We would welcome investments from PromoCapital in either our notes or our institution.

At Fonkoze, we don't believe that we have all the answers for Haiti. We are simply providing a basic service, access to affordable financial services, to the millions of rural Haitians who otherwise would be forced to rely on moneylenders and other informal providers. This year we celebrated our 10-year anniversary in the midst of all of the turmoil in Haiti. We remain committed to our mission and plan only to reach out to even more clients in even more rural areas who live in even further depths of poverty.

Sharmi Sobhan
Executive Director, Fonkoze USA
Director, Fonkoze Financial Services
fonkozeusa@fonkoze.org
www.fonkoze.org

[HenriD]

Dear Ms. Sobhan,

We are very familiar with your organization and laud its valuable contribution to the Haitian economic infrastructure. As a matter of fact we have been intending to contact you via Jean-Edner Nelson, who is quite familiar with PromoCapital, its genesis and orientations.

I was very pleasently surprised to see your posting here and we do indeed have funds we would like to invest in Fonkoze to be used in your micro-finance operation.

Please get in touch with me by e-mail at
henri-deschamps@promocapital.us or by phone at (509) 401-2016.

Best Regards,

Henri Deschamps

[Kathleen Burke]

Dear Leonel Jean-Baptiste:
You do not have to be Haitian to lose investment money in Haiti. In June 2000 I joined my Haitian friends (some with your last name) to invest in banque haitienne de developpment (BHD) in bois verna with a cd from a settlement from a u.s. insurance company. We traveled all over Haiti, opening branches of Koperan, associated with the bank. young people had jobs; there was hope. On the last days of january 2002, Aristide sent his CIMO to close down the bank (the only bank closed in Haiti). Coincidentally, several members of Lavalas opposition were shareholders and had accounts in the bank. The then head of the Central Banque (since indicted for fraud, due to records trail of $645,000 check to Aristide govt., and more) went on the air to say that this was to "protect the depositors" and that within three months he would have a solution that would "please even Chavannes (Jean-Baptist
e, head of MPP, 33 year old peasants' rights organization)" Despite my appeals to just about everywhere, I am still out my $25,000. Without a truthful Central Bank, you don't have a country. kathleen burke, usa

[Leonel Jean-Baptiste*]

Kathleen, I am very sorry for the loss. But I want to emphasize that investing in any country is a risk, not only in Haiti. I know Haiti presents a greater risk for its political instability. But, I still hope things will get better. As an Haitian living overseas, I would like to see more trust among us. I'd love to see more forgiveness for past behaviour. Nothing is really perfect in life, but we can still drive towards excellence.

Every one of us invests in anything to make a profit. It hurts when one loses in any particular business. But, it's life. I would like to see more people willing to invest in Haiti without fears and stereotypes.

Haiti is a country with a lot of hope and opportunity. We are going through some obstacles or dark moments. But, "We shall Overcome".

We have a lot of very competent people overseas and at home. We just need to forgive each other (not forgetting the past).

Kathleen, you will be welcome to invest in the new Haiti without fear. Not now, but eventually post this dark period that we are having politically.

Think positively. The past few days, I've been discouraged myself with the situation back home which made it very difficult for me to even think straight. But, mark my word, we(Haitians) will get there. We will be better.

I wish I could tell you more for that amount of money lost?

Stay strong!

**By the way, perhaps Chavannes is related to me (Hinche area), my dad was from Hinche also.

leonel

[T-dodo]

Sorry to join in late in this discussion! New member!

Perhaps someone has already made that point in kreyol. I would not know, my kreyol reading stinks. My writing is worse. But, take comfort, I speak it perfectly. It is my best form of expression. Anyway, back to the point.

For commerce to prosper, property rights must be enforceable. The absence of enforcement causes the buyer not to be able to get value for its money, in case of incompetent supplier or fraud. The seller, without possibility of enforcement, well, may sell for free.

The issue of trust, in Haiti and in my humble opinion, is not the lack of trust in the Haitian doing the business but rather in the Haitian system that does not enforce property rights. I was reminded about it in reading something about that in another post on this site. For, in business dealings, you use enforceable tools, such as: promissory note, receipt, letters of credit, contract, etc., not
trust. If you don't beleive me, remember the last time or an occasion when you lent money to a cousin, relative, friend or even a brother or sister! The trust you talking about is not in the Haitian people but in the Haitian system. I suppose that the day you can enforce your rights in court in Haiti, you would have no problems dealing with Haitians. All you would have to do is making sure that your property rights are enforceable.

[HenriD]

Dear Mr. Florestal,

You have hit the nail on the head. That is an extremely astute observation and absolutely correct.

In business, as in other societal matters, it is less a matter of trust than a matter of mutual respect of contracts and covenants enforced by:

a) cultural norms, the unwritten contract
b) the written contract and a judicial system that is unbiased, technically proficient and has the capacity to enforce its judgements.

Trust exists between people because of a preexisting relationship in which trust is mutually and consistently reinforced.

Trust exist in investment, trade and commerce because the laws enforce the contracts.

Both are important but lacking the first, laws are there to assure the second.

Therein indeed lies a big part, possibly one of the prime roots of our developmental problem.

Unless we abolish private property then the only viable alternative is to enforc
e property rights.

In Haiti, as a rule, we do not respect others' rights and others' property, we do not have laws which enforce property rights. We do not have a transparent judiciary.

When one speaks of property rights, it is not only about land and buildings, the rights one has in a contract is a property, a trademark is a property, a painting, a song, a copyright is a property. Our character and reputations are a property.

Many of our proverbs eloquently express our attitudes about property rights:

"volè piti pa volè"
"volè volè pa volè"

Many problems exist because the society has decided that if you are poor you can do what you want. You can privatize private and public lands for your individual use, you can privatize the streets and sidewalks, you can privatize the government. Poverty needs our understanding and our actions to eradicate it. When it translates instead to a license to cheat and steal, Houston we have a problem.

That mindset translated into i
ndividual and societal behaviors leads to the criminality and corruption we see, the suspicion and justified paranoia we have about our place in this place, limits what we can build, hold and defend. When you see that you cannot defend what you intend to build, you stop building.

Societies are built using its individual components. A country is built of its people and its laws a codification of their culture.

There is little to be proud of as pertains to the respect of contracts.

An understandable mindset inherited from slavery which says that what is yours is mine is still playing itself out as we speak in government offices, trade and commerce. While we can understand its roots, we also need to condemn it. When we take freedom, we also inherit responsability.

The real question is:
How long will it take us as a group to understand those things, modify our behaviors, create the structures which defend a new culture as relates to this problem.

We might do well to remember
that one of the most basic and fundemental individual rights is the right to respect. Our good name and reputation is our property. When I see what satisfaction, pleasure and glee we often take in demolishing people's characters, names and reputations I have to assume we ain't there yet.

Our prime property in life is ourselves. Respecting oursleves and others, is a good place to start.

What we see in action in Haiti is a culture with a very strong tendency to Nihilism, and recently political systems based on a doctrine of nihilism.

What is Nihilism:
a) Meaning "nothingism" from Latin term nihil "nothing". A true Nihilistic denies or rejects all values and meanings. This would be the ultimate skeptic.

b) A doctrine which holds that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and without truth. Nihilists usually deny that there is any intrinsic value or meaning in human life, and many believe that the prevailing values of their society are so bad that it would be best to destr
oy them.

c) The view that there are no moral or ethical values. Nothing is right or wrong, forbidden or required, good or bad.

d) A denial of any ground for objective or moral truth.

e) A revolutionary doctrine that advocates destruction of the social system for its own sake, complete denial of all established authority and institutions.

Does the description of Nihilism sound familiar? For those living here it is not only familiar, but like the fish living in toxic water, it is the cultural water we live and breathe in.

Not an easy thing to fix.

Where does it start, it starts with individuals who have learned better and do better. With people who add clean water rather than continue to foul the water. As in all things human it is above all about example. We all learn by observing and doing.

We tend to think someone has to fix it for us. "Ici bas", we have to fix it ourselves. And the logical conslusion is that we fix it by doing and by our example while doing.
r

No magic formulas, just hard work, every second of every day.

I was so pleased to see your post I wanted to thank you for what I consider your very brilliant insight.

Best Regards,

Henri Deschamps

[Marilyn*]

Henri,

I was in full agreement with you until I read this:

Many problems exist because the society has decided that if you are poor you can do what you want. You can privatize private and public lands for your individual use, you can privatize the streets and sidewalks, you can privatize the government. Poverty needs our understanding and our actions to eradicate it. When it translates instead to a license to cheat and steal, Houston we have a problem.

That mindset translated into individual and societal behaviors leads to the criminality and corruption we see...

Especially the "Many problems exist because the society has decided that if you are poor you can do what you want" part.


There are many folks who might want to restate such a one-sided analysis. They might state it this way:

Many problems exist because the society has decided that if you
are rich you can do what you want.

Perhaps a broader-based explanation -- such as human greed or human envy, rather than alluding to whether one is rich or poor -- might be more constructive?

Rich and poor Haitians contribute to Haiti's problems.

Not just one or the other.

Don't polemics lead to further divisions and emnities?

At a time when Haitians (rich and poor, in Haiti, outside of Haiti) need to be drawing closer toward one other?

To fight enemies such as deforestation, flooding, poverty, hunger, thirst, etc.

Rather than pit one class against the other?


Marilyn

[T-dodo]

Well said, Marilyn. I am sure Henri means the same thing on both sides of the society ladder. While Henri is right that the poor, or some poor, get involved in abuses, the reason it happens is because of lack of law enforcement. It turns out that the rich, or some rich, take also advantage of the absence of law enforcement in the country to get richer.

We all know now that the absence of law enforcement, like under the previous administration that we will call democracy, or the selective enforcement of it under a few administrations earlier, that we will call dictatorship, does not benefit the country in the long run. For the poor, it allows them to vent their frustration but in the process destroys the economic infrastructure of the country. For the rich, it allows them to circumvent competitive forces to increase their wealth. In so doing, monopolies are preserved, markets do not grow, and the economy atrophies. Personally, I think tha
t practice is self-defeating for a business person, an elite group or the business community. The reason is that it eliminates sets of rules that all can follow and depend on, and works against the interest of all property owners, even though today one owner may benefit from it. Tomorrow, the beneficiary will be the victim and it is unpredicatable in terms of magnitude of the negative effect on wealth.

The question is why do we, Haitians, like that state of affairs so much to the point that it has been surviving in our country since our independence, most of the times? The truth is for a system to survive that long, it must benefit a group that has the ability to maintain it in place. While one can point out to the dominating class in Haiti, it is difficult to argue that they have benefitted from anything in Haiti in recent past. The country's economy has stopped creating wealth since a long time now and it is hard to see anyone involved in a legitimate business in Haiti who has consistently grown its
business, market, or wealth. I know there will be arguments about how we measure these criteria, my conclusion is that as long that country as a whole is not improving, that should be the barometer for the commercial class. This raises another question. Has the leading class in Haiti involved in a self-defeating startegy throughout history that is constantly eroding its wealth? Perhaps some of you have answers to this!

[Leonel Jean-Baptiste*]

Great points, guys.

JM, I would like to follow up on your conclusive question and use the US as a parameter, or analogy.

There is an elite which is about one percent of the US population. This elite is getting richer everyday while the masses are getting poorer...Why is it so different between those two societies (Haiti, USA)? Is it again, because the US has what they call the "Rule of law", or something else?

Remember the American Bourgeoisie is outsourcing for better profits which should have been chaotic to the US economy. But yet, the US still is one the strongest economical superpowers...

Perhaps, if Haiti were a country of consumers like the USA, that would have made a difference? If the masses could afford the basic needs, had buying power?

As you can see, I only have more questions than solutions.
Maybe law enforcement with my favorite motto "TET ANSANM" can be a positive tool...

Personnally, I
think the Haitian Elite has money, but not Rich. I may be wrong. Because, when I look at our GNP, we're importing more than exporting. Our masses can only consume on a short term basis. Therefore, as a business owner, one should only rely on very durable goods which tend to be more expensive and unaffordable.

Sur ce, I think this system does not benefit anyone. The elite would or some would want a developping country with buying power for the people (jobs).

Today's situation only benefits thugs who would make a fortune from this crumbled economy or situation. They were and are politically the force behind our self defeating...These are the bad apples who are anti progress, anti law, anti Haiti, anti security. They are from every social group, not one in particular. And they need to be taken care of, before it's too late.

Personal observation:
As Haitians (including me), we have a tendency to approve fiction without any proven fact, we love fairy tales...

Someone has this gr
eat quote:
"It's hard to find Happiness, since Poverty and Wealth failed".

L'union fait la force...
leonel

[T-dodo]

Leonel,

In general, I agree with all your statements. However, for purposes of accuracy, some of them require further narrowing of their definition. It will be important as we draw conclusions from them in the future.

First, a general response to your post before taking the pieces one by one. Laws are established to benefit the society, or a people such as a country, as a group. When there is a state of lawlessness, society loses. In our case, Haiti has everything to lose by the current and past history of lawlessness, and has lost a lot. In the long run, everybody loses. The thugs, or the outlaws, benefit in the short run. But in the long run, they will also lose. They will either end up in jail or forced out in exile where they will not be able to replicate the actions that benefited them in the past, and be very unhappy.

Now, you wrote about the USA elite: "This elite is getting richer everyday while the masses are getti
ng poorer..." While I read or heard more than one report from the U.S. press stating the same, the criteria for support of the statement were never the same used by the different press people. In addition, this situation may be true for a certain period and reverse in another, such as different administrations. The reality is over time in the USA the middle class is growing from people moving up from the masses or poor, and people from the elite moving down as their fortunes change.

You wrote following the previous statements, referring to the US elite:"Why is it (the elite) so different between those two societies (Haiti, USA)? Is it again, because the US has what they call the "Rule of law", or something else?" This is another great topic. In a country, the elite supposes to lead, control the economy. In Haiti, the elite does not. Because, if it did why is it acting against its own interests? What I mean is: rather than negotiating with the masses to protect its interest, historically it has driven t
he masses to the point that at every opportunity they find, the masses "coupe tet, boule kay" that belongs to the elite. The question of WHY THE TWO ELITES ARE SO DIFFERENT is too complex for this post.

You also wrote about the USA: "Remember the American Bourgeoisie is outsourcing for better profits, which should have been chaotic to the US economy. But yet, the US still is one the strongest economical superpowers..." The US still is one the strongest economical superpowers not because it is outsourcing, but because it is so far more advanced than the others that it can afford setbacks and still stay upfront. Also, the US economy is cyclical. Historically, it has gone up and down at least once in every decade. There are also other issues as to relationship between the health of the economy and the status of the poor. These are too complicated and besides our point to be discussed in this forum.

You wrote: "Maybe law enforcement with my favorite motto "TET ANSANM" can be a positive tool..
." Here I am not advocating a totalitarian type of government. What I said was "enforcing property rights." By that, I mean if you own something and somebody steal it, that you can go to court and get the thief to return it or get compensated. We have law enforcement as an ideal in Haiti, except that it does not work. It has been selective historically, meaning that if you have power you can enforce your rights, but if you don't you can't enforce it.

You wrote:" Personnally, I think the Haitian Elite has money, but not Rich. I may be wrong. Because, when I look at our GNP, we're importing more than exporting. Our masses can only consume on a short term basis. Therefore, as a business owner, one should only rely on very durable goods which tend to be more expensive and unaffordable." I agree in principle with you on this.

You wrote:"As Haitians (including me), we have a tendency to approve fiction without any proven fact, we love fairy tales... " Perhaps, you are right to a certain extent. B
ut the real problem with truth in Haiti is that you don't have a press that is ready to challenge a public figure's factual mistatements. Thus, the masses have no choice but believing because they don't have a way of verifying the statements. By the time they have proof the public figure was lying, it is too late. In the US for example, when a public figure makes a promise, the press asks him to prove it or how he is going to pay for it. If he can't they ridicule him. I think if I become a public figure in Haiti today, I can probably get away with promising that I will build new roads and repair all existing roads in 2 years. I bet you I will not be challenged to prove where I will find the money to do it and where I will find the resources to accomplish that in such a short period of time.

So, to conclude, all the developed countries have property rights enforcement mechanism. Without it, there is no reason to own property. That's why historically, once someone becomes rich in Haiti they sen
d the money to be saved or stored in a country where they can enforce their property rights!

Jean-Marie

[Leonel Jean-Baptiste*]

People, people, people:

Everyone seems very discouraged following the elections... We have to stay focused, I don't want to give up this very important topic: "Investing in Haiti"?

There is a lot to cover. I wanted to touch also on the fact that We Haitians would trust any foreigner instead of our own people. I remember a couple of years, when I started my little cosmetic company. To study my potential market, I went to this famous cosmetic place in Queens. When I asked the owner about coming out with a body lotion, perfume etc, the answer was a big: "No way, I won't buy anything from Haitians, I only buy French products (Nivea etc)". When I asked him why, he answered: "The French products are simply good, they are the best".

Remember, this is a Haitian-owned business... What goes in mind is, as a Haitian myself, we have a tendency to think "Blan se Bondye". They can't be wrong.

I know a lot of us have these stereo
types towards our brothers, "they don't know what they're doing".

I have this joke from long time ago:
*Machin frape on neg nan ri dE Mirak. LE misye rive lopital jeneral, te gen doktE blan ki tap trete l. Blan yo deklare misye mouri. LE yap pote misye nan mog la, misye di moun yo: "Mesye, mwen pa mouri non". Neg yo gade misye, yo di: "Blan an di w mouri epi w di ou pa mouri, se Blan w ye?*

Anyway, guys, I know that we have more instances where our own people do not believe in our abilities. How can we start trusting each other from Haiti to anywhere else in the world???

L'union fait la Force

leonel