Bad Behavior

Bad Behavior

Postby Clement » Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:14 pm

http://www2.elnuevodiario.com.do/app/article.aspx?id=119034

Des Haïtiens armés de pistolets assaillent un bus de transport dans Hato Mayo, RD

Toga
9/9/2008

Haitianos armados de pistolas asaltan guagua de transporte en Hato Mayor
Copyright 2008 El Nuevo Diario

2:02 PM - HATO MAYOR.- Tres nacionales haitianos, portando pistolas asaltaron anoche una guagua del transporte interurbano, de Hato Mayor, despojando del dinero al chofer, cobrador y pasajeros que abordaban la unidad vehicular, perteneciente al Sindicato de Transporte Hato Mayor (SITRAHAM). La acción de los haitianos afectó a la guagua ficha 37 conducida por Santo Peguero (Cara de Block), quien dijo que los cacos cargaron con 800 pesos que se habían producido del viaje Macorís-Hato Mayor.

“Uno de los asaltantes me colocó una pistola a la cabeza y me obligó entregarle el dinero, mientras los restantes obligaban a los pasajeros a punta de cuchillos entregar prendas y dinero”, contó Santo Peguero.

El hecho se produjo a la altura del kilómetros 2, entrando a Hato Mayor y los delincuentes haitianos utilizaron una pistola y armas blancas para cometer su acción.

Tras cometer la acción vandálica, los haitianos huyeron rumbo a la comunidad de Los Hatillos, siendo seguido por la policía, sin darle alcance.

En las últimas semanas nacionales haitianos han estado involucrados en crímenes, asaltos y casos de drogas en Hato Mayor.

Los últimos asesinatos perpetuados por haitianos afectaron la vida de los hacendados Francisco Trinidad, Rafael Santana y Ramón Reyes, los dos primeros asesinados en sus respectivas fincas de las secciones Manchado y La Sierra, mientras que el tercero le quitaron la vida en la carretera que va a la comunidad de Yerba Buena.

La presencia haitiana en la provincia Hato Mayor está preocupando al procurador fiscal, Manuel Emilio Santana Montero, quien pidió a Inmigración tomar acciones enérgicas contra los haitianos, ordenando su repatriación.

Dijo que muchos haitianos están ligados a robos, asaltos, atracos, al crimen organizado y el narcotráfico, en varias comunidades de Sabana de la Mar, El Valle y Hato Mayor.

Se dijo que haitianos también asaltaron una guagua de pasajeros de ASTRAPU en San Pedro de Macorís, obligando al chofer y pasajeros entregarle dinero y prendas, ante la amenaza de muerte si no accedían a sus peticiones.

Autor: MANUEL A. VEGA

Copyright 2008 El Nuevo Diario | Todos los derechos reservados.
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Postby Guysanto » Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:25 am

Spare us your indignation.

We do not condone criminal conduct. In all circumstances, criminals should be arrested and punished with a sentence that is commensurate with the crime, IF THEY ARE GUILTY.

It would not be the first time that the people of Hata Mayor have FALSELY identified Haitians as perpetrators of crimes that Dominicans themselves have perpetrated and made innocent Haitian migrants pay with their lives.

It's not to say that Haitians never commit crimes, but pardon me if I take this sort of news with a grain of salt.

When Dominicans commit the worst sort of criminal abuses against innocent Haitians, such as murder by pouring gasoline on them and then deliberately lighting them on fire and burning them alive to the most painful kind of death, where are the voices of indignation from the Dominican state and the Dominican press? When Dominicans commit extremely violent crimes against Haitians, why aren't they arrested?

Please spare us your indignation, if it is one-sided and overly biased against people of Haitian descent.

From where I stand here, I will not hesitate to tell you that I smell a rat. The stench coming from Hata Mayor has not yet subsided.

Everyone, including of course, ALL Haitians, should learn to live honestly and peacefully, but the propaganda of HATE must stop.

If the Haitian government, to its enduring shame, has only feebly protested against abuses and crimes committed against people of Haitian descent in the Dominican Republic, this does not mean that as individuals, we must take it on the chin and follow the bad examples of our government. On "Ann Pale" and WindowsonHaiti.com, I reserve the right to call a cat a cat and a rat a rat. I truly wish that the Government of Haiti would do the same. It is their policy of neglect of bilateral relations on an equal footing between the two countries that has people of Haitian descent always eating crow in the D.R. President Preval could have done much better in his first administration, just as he can do much better in his second. He needs to wake up to the realities of Haitian migration and understand that his foreign policy so far is akin to an ostrich placing its head in the sand. The danger does not go away. The Dominican Government's offer of humanitarian assistance to Haiti at our time of distress does not alleviate either its responsibility to deal fairly with all hate crimes on its territory.
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Towns Confusion

Postby Clement » Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:47 pm

Guy:

I see some confusion about city, towns

Hato Mayor is in the east.

Hatillo Palma is near Dajabon - Montecristy area.


I also see lots of hate of the haitian people against your neiborgh.


When Leonel visted P. Prince he was treated really bad by the haitians.


I'm not a follower of L. Fernandéz, but what he did to help your brothers and mine's was in the spirit of christianity.

Later in the days to come i'll send the full version of what happened in Hatillo Palma.



And the crimes of the 4 haitian burned in Santo Domingo.



Do you remember how the mob burned the Ton Ton Macoutes, when Baby Doc was overthrown ?
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Postby Guysanto » Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:02 pm

I confused Hatillo Palma and Hato Mayor. Sorry for that. However, I do stand by everything else I wrote above.

I still smell a rat.

The surprising thing is that after you tried to whip up some antihaitianismo feelings here a couple of years ago, you have come back to the charge.

I also see lots of hate of the haitian people against your neiborgh.

I am not surprised that you see it that way. To people who are familiar with both the Haitian and the Dominican people, "antidominicanismo" is not a word, not even a viable concept to describe the occasional resentment of the Haitian people towards their Dominican brothers. On the other hand, antihaitianismo is as real as it gets. You can hear it on the streets, public places, and radios; you can see it on television and newsprint; you can experience it in public transportation; and all of that, every single day. I have been to the Dominican Republic enough times to know what I am talking about.

The "lots of hate of the haitian people" you mention is real, but Dominican people are the ones who do most of the hating, BY FAR. Just read your own newspapers and your own internet sites.

Then, by comparison, read Haitian newspapers and Haitian internet sites. Where's the hate coming from, bro?


When Leonel visted P. Prince he was treated really bad by the haitians.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't this soon after some 15 Haitians were killed in cold blood after their bus was fired upon after crossing the border? Do you really expect Haitian people never to express their outrage at the killings of their brothers with impunity in the Dominican Republic?

I'm not a follower of L. Fernandéz, but what he did to help your brothers and mine's was in the spirit of christianity.

Well, I prefer not to discuss "the spirit of christianity" here. Whenever politicians brandish it, I feel that someone is going to get mugged. From Christopher Columbus to Bartolome De Las Casas, from George W. Bush to Cardinal Nicolas de Jesus Lopez Rodriguez, Haitians or Africans have always gotten a raw deal. And now, you're going to tell me something about Leonel Fernandéz and Jesus Christ? Save your sermon and let's deal with the facts.


Later in the days to come i'll send the full version of what happened in Hatillo Palma.

And the crimes of the 4 haitian burned in Santo Domingo.

Hopefully in English, French, or Haitian. The board is already trilingual. Making it quadri-lingual is a bit rich, don't you think?

But, yes, I sure would be interested in how you will justify burning "4 haitian in Santo Domingo".

Do you remember how the mob burned the Ton Ton Macoutes, when Baby Doc was overthrown ?

Yes, they burned not "the" but "a few" Tonton Macoutes, and that was revolting! But what is your point here?
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Response

Postby Clement » Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:45 pm

Yes, they burned not "the" but "a few" Tonton Macoutes, and that was revolting! But what is your point here?


Do you know criminal anthropolgy ? Forensics ? Have you see in the last 100 years dominicans killing other people with gasoline?

It´s a national pass time to go and get haitians and kill them ?

To put them in a car tire and kill them?
On a average day you'll see the pro Aristide versus the anti Aristide. And next comes the tire + petrol + fire.

Why is the Minustha or Turistha there? So that the political emotions ease and stop the slaugther.

How can you go so freely and blame that the 4 haitians were killed by dominicans ?

Do you have the proof?

Or the press is doing the lies business, to sell more? Give me a break. I smell rat and foul.

Could it be a struggle against a haitian versus haitian (political- narc-voudu- family) why is the silence in the haitain side.

In a cas it was by a dominican or a bunch of it. What were their motive ?
Yo think their are going to get away from it?

Crime is a crime, and deserves the law, justice and prision. Life with no parole.


Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't this soon after some 15 Haitians were killed in cold blood after their bus was fired upon after crossing the border? Do you really expect Haitian people never to express their outrage at the killings of their brothers with impunity in the Dominican Republic?


Cold blood? Were do you get your info? I smell rat here bro.
If i'm not alzheimer yet, they died from asphyxia.

Chauffeur? Were was he? He should open the door, window. Now he's on the cage.

The soldiers are in the Disney now. Sure you bet. That bribe put them in the boat for ever.
That happens when you don't go by the rules.

How many mexicans, central americans dies from asphxia? Spain is to blame of the incoming dead on the "cayucos".

But we haven't heard nothing from the "coyotes" trafficers. Back to the same old industries and brainwash haitians that you can get a nice and high paying job at Bavaro Beach Resort, the press said they return to Hinche or whatever. So Leonel is the culprit or the dominicans

Have not heard nothing about the bahamians police that run against a boat


Have a nice day, lets help Haiti, Cuba, Caicos, DR. Tomorrow i'll continue.
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Hatillo Palma

Postby Clement » Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:09 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/27/world/americas/27migration.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&pagewanted=all
Border Crossings

A Global Trek to Poor Nations, From Poorer Ones
Richard Perry/The New York Times

Dajabón, a Dominican border town, opens its gated bridge twice a week to allow Haitians to buy goods unavailable in their country.

By JASON DePARLE
Published: December 27, 2007

JUAN GÓMEZ, Dominican Republic — The scrap-wood shanties on a muddy hillside are a poor man’s promised land.

They have leaky roofs and dirt floors, with no lights or running water. But hundreds of Haitian migrants have risked their lives to come here and work the surrounding fields, and they are part of a global trend: migrants who move to poor countries from even poorer ones.

Among them is Anes Moises, 45, a dark-skinned man with flecks of gray hair, who has worked the Dominican banana fields for more than a decade, always illegally. Farm bosses pay him $5 a day and tell him that Haitians stink. Soldiers have called him a dark-skinned “devil” and deported him four times.

Still, with the average income in the Dominican Republic six times as much as in Haiti, Mr. Moises has answered each expulsion by hiring a smuggler to bribe the border guards and guide him back in.

“We are forced to come back here — not because we like it, but because we are poor,” he said. “When we cross the border, we are a little better off. We are able to buy shoes and maybe a chicken.”

Across the developing world, migrants move to other poor countries nearly as often as they move to rich ones. Yet their numbers and hardships are often overlooked.

They typically start poorer than migrants to rich countries, earn less money and are more likely to travel illegally, which raises the odds of abuse. They usually move to countries that offer migrants less legal protection and fewer services than wealthy nations do. Yet their earnings help sustain some of the poorest people on the globe.

There are 74 million “south to south” migrants, according to the World Bank, which uses the term to describe anyone moving from one developing country to another, regardless of geography. The bank estimates that they send home $18 billion to $55 billion a year. (The bank also estimates that 82 million migrants have moved “south to north,” or from poor countries to rich ones.)

Nicaraguans build Costa Rican buildings. Paraguayans pick Argentine crops. Nepalis dig Indian mines. Indonesians clean Malaysian homes. Farm hands from Burkina Faso tend the fields in Ivory Coast. Some save for more expensive journeys north, while others find the move from one poor land to another all they will ever afford. With rich countries tightening their borders, migration within the developing world is likely to grow.

“South to south migration is not only huge, it reaches a different class of people,” said Patricia Weiss Fagen, a researcher at Georgetown University. “These are very, very poor people sending money to even poorer people and they often reach very rural areas where most remittances don’t go.”

The Haitian migration to the Dominican Republic, its neighbor on the island of Hispaniola, has been large, longstanding and filled with strife. The Spanish-speaking Dominicans still refer angrily to a Haitian occupation that ended in 1844. The Creole-speaking Haitians point to 1937, when a Dominican massacre along the border is estimated to have taken the lives of tens of thousands of Haitians.

Haitian workers started coming in large numbers nearly a century ago, as seasonal help in sugar cane fields. But many now work year-round on farms or urban construction sites, which raises their visibility and the chance for conflict. Estimates vary greatly, but Dominican officials put Haitian migrants at one million, or 11 percent of the population.

As Haitians see it, the problems go beyond hard work and low pay to the systemic violation of their rights. Dominicans profit from their labor, they say, but deny them work papers, deport them at will and discriminate on the belief that Haitians have darker skin.

“There is no justice here,” Mr. Moises said.

Dominicans often present themselves as generous neighbors of limited means, forced to bear the burden of Haiti’s failed state, indigence and epidemic disease. They say they offer Haitians jobs and health care — 30 percent of the public health budget is spent on Haitians, government officials say — while enduring lectures about human rights from countries far from the fray.

“Ay-yai-yai-yai,” said Gen. Adriano Silverio Rodríguez, the commander of a new border force, when describing how Americans would respond if they shared a border with a country as troubled as Haiti. “That wall they’re building — it would be longer and taller.”

Per capita income in the Dominican Republic is $2,850; in Haiti it is $480.

The clash of civilizations can be seen along the Massacre River, a muddy, waist-deep waterway that divides them. On the Dominican side, Dajabón is a market town of 10,000 people, with paved streets, public utilities and a new Internet cafe. Its Haitian counterpart, Ouanaminthe, is seven or eight times as big, with no municipal lights or running water. The dirt roads are filled with trash and pigs.

Twice a week, Dominicans open the bridge, and thousands of Haitians rush across to buy goods that are scarce on their side: eggs, nails, flour, concrete, carrots, salami, juice, cooking oil, chickens and plastic chairs. Guards patrol the area, trying to ensure the Haitians’ return.

Bribery and violence are common. In a case now before the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, Dominican soldiers are accused of indiscriminately firing on a smuggler’s truck, killing six Haitians. Two dozen Haitians in a smuggler’s truck suffocated last year. Their bodies were dumped on the road.

Unwritten Rules

The village of Juan Gómez lies 35 miles east of the border, past three military checkpoints that search for illegal migrants. But its illegal migrants, like Mr. Moises, live in plain view. Their open presence points to the capricious unwritten rules: Haitians caught at the border are usually sent back, while those needed by employers are often left to stay, at least until someone objects.

“We do not intervene in the workplace,” said Carlos Amarante Baret, the Dominican immigration director. “We understand the needs of the agricultural sector.” He acknowledged that the situation “benefits the landowner.”

Gathered here at a small hilltop church squeezed among the shanties, the workers talked of the hardships they had fled and those they had encountered. Jacqueline Bayard said the threat of deportation left the workers powerless. Katline Auguste said the lack of legal papers had kept her from visiting her children in Haiti for three years.

Lorvil Seus said he lived in fear of vigilante violence, as in a famed incident in nearby Hatillo Palma, in which a Haitian pastor was killed — and 2,000 Haitians deported — after the murder of a Dominican woman. Reprisal killings spread, and three Haitians were burned to death near the capital, Santo Domingo.

Mr. Moises voiced gratitude as well as complaints, explaining that he had once walked from Haiti with his malarial daughter in his arms, and Dominican doctors had saved her. “We can only thank them because they helped us,” he said.

Dominican society, in his view, is complex. Some politicians want Haitians deported, he said, but employers “need us to work.” Poor Dominicans claim Haitians are stealing jobs, but refuse those jobs themselves. Officers sometimes order raids to curry political favor, he added, but low-paid soldiers want the Haitians around to extort bribes. “It’s a business they have,” he said.

“We are living in their country,” he said. “We have to take it.”

Colliding Interests

Dominican officials often say that the colliding interests that surround immigration are similar to those in the United States, but that poor countries like theirs have fewer resources to cope. Carlos Morales Troncoso, the Dominican foreign minister, said that the solution to the Haitians’ problems was to promote development in Haiti and urged the United States to do more. “The developed countries talk a lot about Haiti, but the necessary aid just doesn’t come,” he said. By providing jobs, he said, “we do more than the whole international community combined.”

Some south to south migrants are “pushed” by wars and political crises. Others are “pulled” by jobs and better wages. Some follow seasonal work. Some put down roots. Some countries — Argentina is one — have been quick to give amnesty to migrants. Others, including Nigeria and Indonesia, have subjected them to mass deportations.

Many countries simultaneously send and receive large migrations. One reason there are jobs for Haitians is that so many Dominicans have left for the United States. The president, Leonel Fernández, was largely reared in New York City.

That exposes what Dilip Ratha, an economist at the World Bank, calls a common double standard. “Many countries want good treatment for their own people abroad but they don’t treat immigrants well themselves,” he said.

Egyptian police officers killed 26 Sudanese migrants last year in an attack on their squatter camp. An Indian film star, Hritik Roshan, set off a deadly riot in Katmandu, Nepal, in 2000 when he was quoted as saying he “hated” the Nepalis. Costa Ricans sometimes deride Nicaraguans as “Nicas.” In 2005, two Rottweilers killed a Nicaraguan suspected of being a burglar, as an approving crowd watched. Jokes flooded the country, praising the dogs.

Still, Manuel Orozco of Inter-American Dialogue, a Washington research group, warned against viewing south to south migration solely in a negative light. He estimates that Haitians in the Dominican Republic send home $135 million a year.

“Destination countries benefit from foreign labor,” Mr. Orozco said, while migrants get jobs. The challenge, he said, is to create policies that “promote development for both countries, while protecting migrants and their families.”

“Just letting migration happen is not good enough,” he added.

The Dominican Republic has no such framework. This year alone, the conditions of its Haitians have been the focus of two documentary films, a photo exhibit in Paris and a United Nations investigation that found “a profound and entrenched problem of racism.”

Who Is a Citizen?

One battle now playing out involves the right to citizenship, which the Dominican Constitution promises to anyone born on Dominican soil except the children of diplomats and visitors “in transit.” But in 2005 the Supreme Court ruled that illegal immigrants were essentially in transit — though some lived in the country for decades — and therefore their children had no citizenship rights.

Critics say that the ruling conflicts with international law, including a decision by the Inter-American Court of Human Rights two months earlier. They also said the government was using it to deny papers to Dominicans of Haitian descent, impeding their ability to work, study and vote.

Nationalists are trying to get the anti-citizenship provisions written into the Constitution.

“We could have hundreds of thousands of so-called Dominican nationals who on cultural, emotional and political grounds would see themselves as Haitian,” said Pelegrín Castillo, a leading nationalist legislator.

“Every day there are more Haitians in the Dominican Republic,” he added. “We are overwhelmed.”

For many Haitians, the journey ends where it began — in the muddy border town of Ouanaminthe, which receives scores of deported migrants each week. Most arrive penniless. Some sleep in City Hall.

Wesbert Sertil, 27, was among the unfortunates. Tired of hearing his in-laws complain that he could not feed his children, he borrowed $50 a year ago and boarded a smuggler’s truck. But the construction work he found was sporadic, and he sent money home just twice, totaling $90.

He was leaving work one day when military men asked for his papers. After a few days in a border-town jail, he was sleeping in abandoned houses, and asking a religious group for food.

His village was an eight-hour bus ride away, and the family that had urged him to go was unaware of his pending return. Smugglers approached him on the streets, but Mr. Sertil planned to use any money he could scrounge to buy a ticket home. “I got desperate and went to the Dominican Republic,” he said. “I’m not going back again.”


He noted that there were plenty of Haitians willing to take his place.


Lorvil Seus said he lived in fear of vigilante violence, as in a famed incident in nearby Hatillo Palma, in which a Haitian pastor was killed — and 2,000 Haitians deported — after the murder of a Dominican woman. Reprisal killings spread, and three Haitians were burned to death near the capital, Santo Domingo.


From Hatillo Palma all the way to S. Domingo; one is missing. 300 miles is far cry

http://www.diariolibre.com/app/article.aspx?id=33152&commentMode=true
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Postby Edwin Paraison » Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:28 pm

Clement ak Guy,

PA GEN MOUN KAP FE-M KWE KE BAGAY SA SE VERITE.
Gen dwa se dominiken nwa, ke yo pa aksepte kom aysien. Si oldop la te fet sou fwontie a, li ta pi kredib. Men jis Hato Mayor. KATEGORIKMAN MWEN DI SE PA VRE. A la bel bagay papa, la polis kouri deye yo, yo gentan chape poul yo.

Kenbe la
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Postby Leonel Jean-Baptiste » Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:20 pm

Clement,
I wanted to make a few points, but I realize that you already made up your mind. Therefore, there is nothing I can add. Except like Guy, I would like to know what are you trying to show us? In other words, what is your point? Are you trying to show how barbaric a Nation or People can be, based on the acts of a few?
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No

Postby Clement » Sun Sep 14, 2008 3:09 pm

Leonel Jean-Baptiste wrote:Are you trying to show how barbaric a Nation or People can be, based on the acts of a few?

In no ways, trying to point out that their is hatred also against DR .
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Postby Barb » Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:33 pm

Why are you arguing about this now?

One million people left homeless...

Surely both sides of the border have other things to concern themselves with at the moment.

Acting like a thug has never struck me as being a unique characteristic of any particular nationality.
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Postby Clement » Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:43 pm

Barb wrote:Why are you arguing about this now?

One million people left homeless...

Surely both sides of the border have other things to concern themselves with at the moment.

Acting like a thug has never struck me as being a unique characteristic of any particular nationality.

As I said, crimes are every day business.

A cruel or vicious ruffian, robber, or murderer is the definition of thug.

I'm reporting a day in the life of haitians in DR. No matter Ike, Hanna, Faye. It happens on any day.

As we see 25 - 30,000 haitian kids in school in the DR. Some times, we see the other side of the tortilla.


Like some aspects of haterd and misunderstanding between Haiti - DR.

Today the police report the imp
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To Guy, Barb

Postby Clement » Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:28 pm

http://www.miamiherald.com/multimedia/news/afrolatin/

5 American countries are well describe in the Miami Herald newspaper.
Nicaragua, Cuba, Colombia, Honduras, Brazil.
How come we only see the spot of DR ?

The best beauty parlors in Port Prince are operated ownerd by DR womens
http://www.elcaribecdn.com/articulo_caribe.aspx?id=138520&guid=BF59CB898FC34DBA9A84CEC070B150B9&Seccion=3

José Serulle, embajador dominicano en Haití, dice que “hay muchos dominicanos que han venido de forma silenciosa y se han instalado en Haití”.

“Hacemos múltiples trabajos, hay en todos los ámbitos como has podido ver: médicos, ingenieros, mecánicos, saloneras, peluqueros, y tantos otros que hacen cualquier otro tipo de trabajo”, expresa Josefina Pérez Guzmán, vicepresidenta de la Asociación de Dominicanos Residentes en Haití.

Las dominicanas en Haití son en su gran mayoría estilistas.

Juana Alcántara lleva 16 años viviendo en Haití. Aunque en principio vino con la mentalidad de quedarse por sólo tres meses para trabajar en un salón y así comprarse su propia planta eléctrica, para instalar un centro de belleza en Santo Domingo. Hoy la historia es otra.

“Duré unos 5 a 6 años trabajando en un salón de belleza ajeno alquilado, ahora traté de poner el mío, puedo decir que tengo diez años con mi salón propio; ahora no tengo que pagar el alquiler a otra persona”, dijo al conversar con periodistas de Multimedios del Caribe.

Juana vive en unión libre con un haitiano, con quien procreó un hijo. “Monetariamente yo pienso que a las peluqueras aquí en Haití les va mejor que en Santo Domingo, porque comparativamente con el precio de los lavados allá eso depende de qué tipo de salón tú vayas. El mínimo son RD$200, o sea, que cuando tú calculas bien, a una peluquera le va mejor que en Santo Domingo, y por eso me he quedado aquí”.

Las dominicanas que llegaron a Haití nunca vinieron con la intención de quedarse. Consuelo D´Oleo Espinosa es un vivo ejemplo de ello, pero ya lleva 15 años trabajando en salones. Ahora tiene su propio negocio, en donde ha empleado seis haitianas que la ayudan a hacer


So I see bias and desinformation on the Guy's report.

Haitians ladies goes to the saloons to be blancheur and get their Straight hair ?

http://www.elcaribecdn.com/articulo_caribe.aspx?id=180539&guid=CAD7ED0D122F4170ACE626894484549D&Seccion=3

As I said, give to RED CROSS


http://www.elcaribecdn.com/articulo_caribe.aspx?id=138640&guid=68C7ED5CC2864880AA5A7580A66FF961&Seccion=3
ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF GOOD BEHAVIOR AND NON BIAS INFO
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Postby Guysanto » Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:32 pm

Clemente wrote:So I see bias and desinformation on the Guy's report.

The Guy's report????
Thank you for the advance billing! I'll start working on it.

But you see, my dear Clemente, on this board we keep our eyes wide-open. We have never preached hatred for the Dominican people. Yes, we are sensitive to the fact that "antihaitianismo" is alive and well in the Dominican Republic. No one seems more aware of it than many of my Dominican friends (like Mark T., Alba M., Kaity T.) and so many others in Brooklyn, NY and in New Jersey who continually protest the unfair treatment reserved for Haitian laborers and generations of Haitian migrants by the rich/manipulative/exploitative class and the poor/manipulated/exploited classes of Dominican society. My Dominican friends are not afraid to identify themselves as BLACK (not "indios" and other race-concealing names). They join Haitians hand in hand often weekly (and so for many years) to protest in front of the Dominican Consulate in Times Square, NY. They acknowledge the fact that we are TWO countries but ONE people, whose DNA lineage points mostly to Africa (and not Spain or other mostly white European countries). They are ashamed of the fact that many Haitians are routinely abused or killed indiscriminately in the most vicious cases of antihaitianismo which manifests itself on a daily basis in the Dominican press, TV, radio and cyberspace. My Dominican friends, brothers and sisters, want to put an end to the seemingly unending pattern of anti-Haitian prejudices that permeate deeply all institutions in the Dominican Republic, including the government, the judicial system, and the hierarchy of the Catholic Church.

We have never set out to demonstrate that all Dominicans are bad and all Haitians are good. That would be juvenile or downright stupid. That would be insulting to our Dominican allies. That would be equally insulting to the children of many "mixed marriage" families between Haitians and Dominicans, of which I personally know many. And did I say that this would be stupid??? As Barb pointed out "Acting like a thug has never struck me as being a unique characteristic of any particular nationality." This would be the equivalent of hating all Caucasians (including our dear Ann Pale friend, Barb) for the racism of some. On the other hand, would either Barb or I be so foolish to pretend that African-Americans have not been victimized by racism?

One fact remains in all of this: in Haitian society, anti-dominican feelings are sparse. In spite of "1937", growing up I was never raised to hate the Dominican side. Hate the sin, love the sinner: that's perhaps why many Haitian appear to be enamored of their basket-head per excellence, Jean-Claude Duvalier, in spite of the fact that he handsomely profited from the illicit trade of Haitian laborers to the Dominican Republic, and that Trujillo is often talked about as the "dictateur éclairé", a man who for all his madness put the progress of his country and the advance of his countrymen first. I have never heard of Jewish people praising the qualities of Adolf Hitler in any respect whatsoever. But Haitian people are the more forgiving kind. Instead of preaching eternal repudiation of Trujillo, they outdo themselves in lavishing praise on the generalissimo for the infrastructure that he bequeathed to his countryman, as opposed let's say to the impoverishment of François Duvalier's tyrannic years. Technically, they are right. But, emotionally, how can we bring ourselves to admire Rafael Trujillo, when the Jewish people have never seen any virtue in Adolf Hitler? Is it because Trujillo is really one of our own, which makes the genocide even more puzzling? As I am sure you know, Trujillo was partly Haitian, because his grandmother was a Haitian woman, born of Haitian parents in the geographical center of the Republic of Haiti. As great a country-first development planner he may have been, he was also consumed by self-hatred, which unfortunately seems to define so many Dominicans today: the hate of being Black (visibly so), the hate of carrying Haitian DNA which very, very few Dominicans could possibly escape, on any historical or scientific basis.

Even you, my dear Clemente.

[... and No, it's not a question of giving to the Red Cross! It is honorable to give to the Red Cross, but that does not wash the sins of hatred.]

You give us examples of successful Dominican women in the beauty parlor business in Port-au-Prince. I am elated to hear it. This should be publicized more, because up to now, the prejudice has been strongest that the most refined export of the Dominican Republic to Haiti and the Caribbean and European countries has been her sex workers. I always found that notion degrading, in spite of the fact that, while growing up, I have often heard Haitian men speak obligingly of the unsurpassed sexual expertise of Dominican sex workers in one bordello or another. Sure, I would think, Dominican women may place more cultural emphasis on looking sexy, dressing sexy, dancing sexy, acting sexy, than their Haitian counterparts, but what on earth would give them the gift of being better in bed between four walls, in the intimacy of a bedroom even if a public one? I have refused to subscribe to that belief, preferring to believe that all races have equal attributes in that regard.

But if Dominican women are successful businesswomen in Haiti, in beauty parlors or whatever, and assuming that Dominican men could be just as successful, does not this make the point that there is virtually no anti-dominican sentiment in Haiti? In fact, "antidominicanismo" is not a word in anyone's vocabulary. For every successful Dominican business in Haiti, I would like you to give me an example or two of a successful Haitian business in the Dominican Republic. Then and only then, would your argument that Dominicans make better neighbors than Haitians begin to deserve some consideration. At this time, you seem to be working to convince us otherwise... It's working.


Dear Clemente, did you ever ask yourself what would happen to the Dominican economy if all Haitian workers were to withdraw from your borders?

You have the stronger economy. That's why Haitians go there. Puerto-Rico has a stronger economy than the Dominican Republic. That's why Dominicans go there. The U.S. mainland has a stronger economy than Puerto-Rico. That's why Puerto-Ricans come here. Haiti has the poorest economy of all Caribbean countries. That's why Haitians go not only to the Dominican Republic but also to Jamaica, to the Bahamas, to Martinique and Guadeloupe, to Turks and Caicos, to Florida and everywhere else they can land, including Alaska (many Haitians worked on the Alaskan pipeline). We are industrious people. The only thing is, our various governments have not been keen on creating jobs and a wealth-sustaining economy for all the people. Now, there are various reasons for that. But if perchance the Haitian economy rebounded to the point of surpassing the Dominican economy, what would happen? Not only would Haitian people return voluntarily to Haiti, but a lot of Dominicans would be migrating to Haiti as well.

My dear Clemente, you may post another 5,000 Dominican press articles on this board to show that Haitians are bad neighbors (I will delete most of them, not because I wish to edit your views__they are very useful to me__but because you have abused your posting privileges before and are on the brink of doing so again). I do issue a unique Ann Pale invitation to you, however, and as many of your Dominican friends as you like: stop posting Dominican press articles in Spanish, which make this board appear even more cacophonous than seems to be its nature, but do come and present your arguments and grievances, like everyone else (that is, in your own words). We'll be happy to embrace your progressive ideas when you are ready to formulate some. We'll be waiting.

End of the Guy's report, Vol. 1 No. 1, September 15 2008
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It's Clement not Clemente

Postby Clement » Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:02 pm

Freedom of speech in the United States


Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and by many state constitutions and state and federal laws.

Criticism of the government and advocation of unpopular ideas that people may find distasteful or against public policy, such as racism, are generally permitted. There are exceptions to the general protection of speech, however, including the Miller test for obscenity, child pornography laws, and regulation of commercial speech such as advertising.

Other limitations on free speech often balance rights to free speech and other rights, such as property rights for authors and inventors (copyright), interests in fair political campaigns (Campaign finance laws), protection from imminent or potential violence against particular persons (restrictions on Hate speech or fighting words), or the use of untruths to harm others (slander). Distinctions are also often made between speech and other acts, such as flag desecration, which may have symbolic significance.

Source

Library of Congress website.




My dear Clemente, you may post another 5,000 Dominican press articles on this board to show that Haitians are bad neighbors (I will delete most of them, not because I wish to edit your views__they are very useful to me__but because you have abused your posting privileges before and are on the brink of doing so again).



I ABUSED THE POSTNG PRIVILEGES ? BEFORE ?
STILL CONFUSED GUY?
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To my friend Guy

Postby Clement » Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:18 pm

The "lots of hate of the haitian people" you mention is real, but Dominican people are the ones who do most of the hating, BY FAR. Just read your own newspapers and your own internet sites.



DR newspapers are not racist, please show me one ! They just tell the facts of actual life.
On TV you can see the Bill O' Reilly of Fox Cable Service and CNN's Lou Dobbs equivalents.
Oh boy, a DR internet racist site ?
Where is it ?
Big deal, i do not see nobody complaining in the US or in Canada about Mr. Bill or Dobbs comments.
Don't like it ? You have a tv control and swicth the channnel the times you want.

[quote....and the hierarchy of the Catholic Church.

[/quote]

Here read this, sorry it's in spanish an UN "cacophonous" official language.


[url]http://www.listindiario.com.do/app/article.aspx?id=74907
[/url]


http://www.elnacional.com.do/article.aspx?id=58556

Another "church news" , it happends.


Also we see lots of italians and europeans with bad manners and are expelled to thier countries.

http://laveraddominicana.wordpress.com/2008/07/29/fiscalia-dn-dice-suprema-valida-expulsion-de-extranjero/


http://www2.elnuevodiario.com.do/app/article.aspx?id=68882

Haitians also has lots of dominican - blood.

It's a fact that many haitians today: the hate of being mulatos (visibly so), the hate of carrying Dominican DNA which very, some haitians could possibly escape, on any historical or scientific basis.

When was this ?
At the retreat of the haitian army in 1844, hundreds of Santiago's, Moca, Mao's ladies were kidnapped.

Duvalier's murderings, holocaust of 50,000 mulatos was a note of
resentment.



Dominicans has with proud 3 blood source:

Arawak (Taino ) White and Black. 1/3 each one of it.




http://www.kacike.org/GuitarEnglish.html


Biology Department of the University of Barcelona, Spain:
Mitochrondrial DNA in the Taíno groups of Hispaniola


http://www.kacike.org/CalderonEnglish.html



Conclusion

In a sense, the stories of Spanish colonization were successful: the Taíno were declared extinct and nationalist Hispanic ideology has dominated the country's discussions of cultural identity. However, a closer examination of the persistence of Taíno-derived cultural forms reveals their underlying strength. The roots of traditional Dominican culture are truly Taíno....................

Dr. Pedro J. Ferbel Azcarate, from the U.S., is an anthropologist and archaeologist, with a Ph.D. from the University of Minnesota, in the United States. .


http://www.kacike.org/FerbelEnglish.html


We will continue....

Hope to see some progressive ideas and not resentment cries.
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Postby Guysanto » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:27 am

I remember you well. You were on this board before, a few years ago, posting dozens of long articles in Spanish. The common thread was that they were anti-Haitian. I removed them because I cannot open this board to all the languages in the world. Haitians do not commonly speak Spanish and therefore had less opportunity to respond to the poisonous statements that were being introduced. Thanks for your research on "Freedom of speech in the United States". Hopefully, you took note of the clause about "the use of untruths to harm others". In any case, I will continue to moderate this board according to my best judgment, as I always have. I don't have a problem with the expression of your own thoughts and sentiments. That allows me (and others) to counter them with our own or to refute them categorically with historical or sociological facts. People learn mostly from the disagreements of others and that's exactly what a forum is about.

You wrote to me recently and asked me to let you back in, as it has been a few years since you participated on this forum and you could not post any longer. I remembered you well, and still I reinstated your password. No, Clement, I am not confused. I do have a long memory for such things. Would you, as a Dominican, be a good neighbor to your hosts? Time will tell (and everyone will see for himself).

By the way, can you reveal the source of your statement that Duvalier murdered 50,000 mulattos? I do not think that anyone on this board is going to defend Duvalier, but your number is a bit suspect.

Also, when you say:
Dominicans has with proud 3 blood source:
Arawak (Taino) White and Black. 1/3 each one of it.
do you realize how arbitrary that statement is? More than arbitrary, it is absurd!

Also, you state that "Haitians also has lots of dominican - blood." I do not know where you get that from, but so what? As far as I can tell, we have never been dominican-phobic. There are many mixed Dominican and Haitian marriages, and I don't see anything wrong with that. We are really ONE PEOPLE.

Like it or not, WE ARE TRULY ONE PEOPLE.

Let me close with what I had written to you before:
We have never preached hatred for the Dominican people. Yes, we are sensitive to the fact that "antihaitianismo" is alive and well in the Dominican Republic. No one seems more aware of it than many of my Dominican friends (like Mark T., Alba M., Kaity T.) and so many others in Brooklyn, NY and in New Jersey who continually protest the unfair treatment reserved for Haitian laborers and generations of Haitian migrants by the rich/manipulative/exploitative class and the poor/manipulated/exploited classes of Dominican society. My Dominican friends are not afraid to identify themselves as BLACK (not "indios" and other race-concealing names). They join Haitians hand in hand often weekly (and so for many years) to protest in front of the Dominican Consulate in Times Square, NY. They acknowledge the fact that we are TWO countries but ONE people, whose DNA lineage points mostly to Africa (and not Spain or other mostly white European countries). They are ashamed of the fact that many Haitians are routinely abused or killed indiscriminately in the most vicious cases of antihaitianismo which manifests itself on a daily basis in the Dominican press, TV, radio and cyberspace. My Dominican friends, brothers and sisters, want to put an end to the seemingly unending pattern of anti-Haitian prejudices that permeate deeply all institutions in the Dominican Republic, including the government, the judicial system, and the hierarchy of the Catholic Church.


I hope you understand what I have written. I am all for SOLIDARITY between Dominicans and Haitians. Anything else is just a bad reading of History and a profound disservice to our people on whatever part of the island they happen to live.
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Jean Price Mars is the best in sociology

Postby Clement » Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:50 pm

I do not know whay are talking about Guy.
Seems Wall Street bailout has hit you.

My point of view is that there his hatred on both side of the island.


Its
Two nations.Two People.
Like it or not.


Guysanto wrote:



Also, when you say: Quote:
Dominicans has with proud 3 blood source:
Arawak (Taino) White and Black. 1/3 each one of it.
do you realize how arbitrary that statement is? More than arbitrary, it is absurd!



Criollos: The Birth of a Dynamic New Indo - Afro - European People and Culture on Hispaniola.
By Lynne Guitar
Ph.D. History, Vanderbilt University



http://www.kacike.org/LynneGuitar.html






Jean Price Mars ideas:

"For this he contrasts the African embracement of a cultural identity imported from Africa through slavery, while the neighboring Dominican Republic prided itself for adapting the culture of Spain".



Reference

http://www.haitiwebs.com/emagazine/cont ... 5/lang,en/



Collective Bovarism is doctrine that appears in Guy's lectures ?


Papa and Baby Doc's :
Both his regime and that of his father brutally murdered at least 50,000 Haitians, and untold number of citizens, including Baby Doc's own sister, Marie Denise Duvalier-Dominique and her husband Max Dominique who figured on a list of 20 army officers to be executed by "Papa Doc," but his life was spared at the very last minute only after his wife pulled a loaded gun on her father, were forced into exile.


Source:


http://www.wehaitians.com/haiti%20quasi ... edies.html



I comply always with :

The Feedom of speech.
Always


Guysanto wrote:

You wrote to me recently and asked me to let you back in....



No sir
I just asked my password that forgot




Re: A success in....Forgot my password

Thursday, April 24, 2008 3:14 PM



From: "Gertrude Clement" <gercle_04>Add sender to Contacts To: admin@winterludes.net


Please send anotherthanks!Clement

admin@winterludes.net wrote:

The following is an email sent to you by an administrator of "Ann Pale Net". If this message is spam, contains abusive or other comments you find offensive please contact the webmaster of the board at the following address:

admin@winterludes.net

Include this full email (particularly the headers).

Message sent to you follows:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Windows on Haiti is indeed a family, much more than an accidental community. The love has been pouring in the last few days.






Dura lex sed lex

LAW IS THE PATH WAY TO UNDERSTANDING EACH OTHER WITH COMMON SENCE AND ORDER

Here you can find crimes in Cite Soliel, the graffics are gruesome.I'm not defending DR or the dominicans. But they are not sick. You cannot acccuse them without evidence.


Evidence in its broadest sense includes anything that is used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion of a crime.

[url]
http://www.wehaitians.com/
[/url]


IMAGES/Four gang members roasted like chicken in the Port-au-Prince notorious slum of Cite Soleil



Guysanto wrote:

....In spite of "1937", growing up I was never .....



Dessalines wrote about his invasion to the east:

Dessalines quien sustituyó al Toussaint en el liderazgo, declaró la creación de la República de Haití (1-1-1804), y declarando la isla en su Constitución hasta el día de hoy “Una e indivisible”, motivado por la diplomacia Europea, especialmente francesa, de que en el Este estaban los recursos que necesitaban para pagar a Francia, como compensación por los daños sufrido por los colonos galos en el proceso de la independencia, más lo adeudado a otras naciones.
Dessalines invadió la parte Este el 16 de Febrero de 1805, al mando de 21 mil soldados, todos negros, pues Dessalines había impulsado una guerra de exterminio contra los mulatos de la parte Oeste, en repetidos degüellos.

Al llegar a Santiago, el 28 de Febrero de 1805, testigos de la época relatan que: “Los bárbaros se dirigieron con las armas en la manos al templo, asesinando a roso y bellozo, como suele decirse, y nada los detuvo y como si estuvieran en un campo de batalla, hicieron una carnicería horrorosa manchando de sangre con mano sacrílega el suelo y los altares de la casa de Dios…De allí el que pudo escapó para caer después en manos de los bárbaros que recorrían la ciudad y no perdonaban vida al que encontraran” El monto de las victimas de el denominado degüello de Santiago será por siempre desconocido. Una de las muertes más crueles fue la del cura Juan Vásquez:“fue quemado vivo en el coro, sirviendo de pábulo los escaños y otros objetos combustibles de la iglesia”

Luego las fuerzas de Dessalines, siguieron rumbo a Santo Domingo, ciudad habitada por algo menos de 6000 personas, la cual sitiaron, pero encontraron esta ciudad amurallada, con una sólida defensa preparada por el experimentado general Francés Louis Ferrand, uno de los capitanes de las fuerzas Napoleónicas enviadas contra Toussaint, que por haber salvado la Ciudad Capital de la destrucción y el incendio a que estaba condenada, es un hombre quien merece a pesar del tiempo, de ser honrado –sugiero- con la ciudadanía póstuma distinguida,

Después de semanas de lucha, los haitianos decidieron abandonar su objetivo de tomar la Ciudad Primada de América, al ver llegar a Santo Domingo una escuadra francesa, se retiraron destruyendo e incendiando todos los pueblos por donde pasaban: Monte Plata, Cotui, San Francisco de Macorís, San José de las Matas, Moca, La Vega, Santiago, Monte Cristy y cuanta aldea o caserío hallaron en el camino, cuyos ganados eran arreados por la tropa hacia la parte occidental.

La tragedia mas grande la sufrió la comunidad de Moca, el 3 de Abril de 1805, cuando el padre Fray Pedro Geraldino, quien bajo la garantía de Dessalines, el cual de regreso de Santo Domingo, había hecho correr la noticia de que Santo Domingo había capitulado, llamó a sus fieles par que asistieran a un Tedeum en acción de gracias porque había terminado la guerra, el cual celebraría en la iglesia parroquial, al acudir el publico en más de 500 personas de todas las edades y sexo: “la soldadesca Haitiana cerro todas las puertas al comenzar la ceremonia… se entregó de lleno al desorden, saciando su furor brutal sobre aquella concurrencia inofensiva, de la que quedaron muy pocas personas con vida, porque hasta el sacerdote que oficiaba fue ensartado en las bayonetas, en medio de la espantosa gritería de aquella horda de salvajes.

De todas las mujeres que estaban en la iglesia sólo quedaron con vida dos muchachas que estaban debajo del cadáver de la madre, de la tía o de la persona que la acompañaba, porque se fingieron muertas… cubiertas con la sangre que había derramado el cadáver que tenían encima…En el presbiterio había, por lo menos, 40 niños degollados y encima del altar una señora de santiago, doña Manuela Polanco…con dos o tres heridas mortales de la que estaba agonizando.

Y Doña Antonia David, que resistía a los torpes deseos de uno de aquellos feroces animales fue atravesada de un bayonetazo en la puerta de la iglesia. Don Antonio Geraldino, don Mateo Muñoz y el Capitán del Partido de Moca, Don José Lizardo, sorprendido en sus casas fueron atados a sus respectivas camas y quemados vivos al ser incendiadas las respectivas viviendas por los haitianos.

La población sobreviviente fue acarreada para Haití, juntos con el ganado y los cerdos y las bestias de carga a punta de bayonetas, los ancianos o aquellos que estorbaban la marcha por su estado de debilidad, eran asesinados y cuando la caravana llego al río Esperanza, los apetitos de la soldadesca haitiana se desfogaron sobre las pocas niñas que aun no habían sido violadas, sin tomar en cuenta la tierna edad de muchas de ellas.



Sorry it`s in spanish, if you have the french or english version, great. This is not Trujillo's story (SOB...son of b....)it's Dessalines


Tomorrow is another day, we will continue


Take care
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Postby Guysanto » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:53 pm

Now you've managed to become completely incoherent.
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