Where is the Iron Pig Statue?

[Gelin*]

In several articles about Haiti on the web, people keep mentioning an 'Iron Pig Statue" built in P-au-P supposedly in honor of Bookman, or the Bois-Caïman ceremony. A search on the web using these keywords will reveal what I am talking about. Can anybody help me locate that statue...? Has anybody seen it...?

gelin

[Gelin*]

Will anyone help me locate that mysterious iron pig statue?

gelin

[guysanto*]

Gelin, perhaps the reason you haven't gotten an answer is that the iron pig statue does not really exist. But before I jump to such a conclusion, would you tell us the sources of that information that you have come across?

That could be very useful.

Guy

[Gelin*]

Just a couple of references:

...On the night of August 14, 1791, the slaves sealed that unity in a ceremony held in the woods at Bois Caiman, not too far from Cap-Haitien. A pig was slaughtered, and all of those present drank of the blood of that pig and together pledged 200 years of service to the spirits of the island in exchange for victory over the French. An iron statue of a pig sits in Port-au-Prince to commemorate that event...
Source: www.rootzreggae.com/Rootz-kulcha/HaitianRevolution.htm

...On 14 August 1791, a black slave and witch doctor named Boukman led the slaves in a voodoo ritual. They sacrificed a pig and drank its blood to form a pact with the devil, whereby they agreed to serve the spirits of the island for 200 years in exchange for freedom from the French. The slave rebellion commenced on 22 August 1791, and after 13 years of conflict, the slaves won t
heir independence. On 1 January 1804 they declared Haiti the world's first independent black republic. <B>An iron statue of a pig stands in Port-au-Prince to commemorate the "Boukman Contract"</B>....

Source: Elizabeth Kendal, Conference Moderator <eliz@alphalink.com.au>, http://worldevangelical.org/persec_haiti_26aug03.html

gelin

[Michel Nau*]

I am sorry that I could not give you a positive answer about your quest to find this pig.

Nevertheless, during my childhood, I used to see this statue located sur La Place de L’Italie au Bicentenaire, Port-au-Prince, across from the old Legislative palace. The statue was not an ordinary pig, but a boar, a sanglier, a cochon marron, a razorback (razor = zinglin, back = dos = zinglindos).

If not there, apparently, the status was stolen during the fall of Baby Doc Duvalier, 18 years ago.

Allow me to make a few comments about your quotes above.

Boukman was from one of these British islands. Nobody knew his real name, because he was not from a particular plantation where one could identify himself by his master’s name. However, his nickname was “book man” because he was intelligent, and knew how to read and write. He was a seaman, a pirate who escaped from a British ship, and he established himself in the high unreachable
mountains of La Selle, and le Cibao. The frontier of St Domingue at that time and still is a no man land; where everything goes.

The Carib Indians specially the women were not completely exterminated by the Spanish. Just like in America, we still have the Apaches, the Cherokees, the Comanches, the Mohicans, the Seminoles. A lot of them survived and lived in the mountains.

There, they united with the “cimarrones” or escaped slaves from the French side of the island. For years, they lived, and had children together. Their children are called "Black Caribs" and now, ‘Marabous”, beautiful men and women, or mixed black and Carib Indians. Biassou, Boisrond Tonnerre, to name a few were Black Caribs.

They have a lot of Marabous in Dominican Republic, and in Haiti as well.

Note that a mixture of black and white is different, it’s called “mulatto or grimo”.


One of the ancestors of the Carib Indians and the Marrons was a Marabou called Mackandal who organized the first slave revo
lt. Unfortunately, the revolt was not well organized, and was crushed almost instantly. Later came Bookman who realized that the marrons were from different tribes and spoke different dialects; and the best way to unify them, was through a common language, Creole, and a common spirit, Voudou.

Finally after years of battles of defeats (La Crete a Pierrot), and victories (Vertieres), around January 1804, the indigenous army declared themselves independent from France, and after more than 300 years, renamed the island its original Indian name, Hayiti, in honor and memory of their first true friends from the new world, ancestors and first true owners of this piece of real estate, the Carib Indians.

Finally there wasn’t any such thing so-called “Boukman Contract” with the devil, as stated from worldevangelical.org website. These religious group as usual try to dilute such a beautiful epic of our history, and anything that is not Christian.

And the iron statue of the pig was not to commemorate
the ceremony held in the woods at Bois Caiman. The statue was if I am not mistaken, a gift from the Italian Embassy to the Haitian people.

The only statue of the post-Haitian revolution commemorating the freedom of slaves that I know is “Le Haitian Marron Inconnu” (Our unknown brother/soldier) which is probably the only statue of a slave with a “broken chain”.

To know more about the Caribbean, I recommend the following books.

L’Histoire D’Haiti, by Thomas Madiou.
The Caribbean, a traveler’s story, by James Ferguson
The Black Jacobins, by C.L.R. James
From Columbus to Castro, by Sir Eric Williams

Gelin, If you ever locate this iron statue of the pig, please let us know.

Thanks

Michel Nau
Washington, DC

[guysanto*]

<p align=justify>This note contains a lot of very interesting historical references. Thank you, Michel.

But one thing caught my attention particularly, though it probably is the least significant of all the historical links that you have mentioned. It's about the etymology of the word "zenglendo".

<b>The statue was not an ordinary pig, but a boar, a sanglier, a cochon marron, a razorback (razor = zinglin, back = dos = zinglindos).

Can you confirm to me, Michel, that this is the origin of the term? Could anyone else corroborate the veracity of that information? I have always been fascinated by the etymology of Creole words and this would constitute a prized nugget, if it were true! How did it come about and when?

I can readily see why any number of Haitians would refer to a "zenglendo" as a "kochon mawon" (quite a familiar insult in Haiti..
. and for good reason). But I never thought about a linguistic equivalence between the two terms.

[guysanto*]

<b>Boukman was from one of these British islands. Nobody knew his real name, because he was not from a particular plantation where one could identify himself by his master’s name. However, his nickname was “book man” because he was intelligent, and knew how to read and write. He was a seaman, a pirate who escaped from a British ship, and he established himself in the high unreachable mountains of La Selle, and le Cibao. The frontier of St Domingue at that time and still is a no man land; where everything goes.

The Carib Indians specially the women were not completely exterminated by the Spanish. Just like in America, we still have the Apaches, the Cherokees, the Comanches, the Mohicans, the Seminoles. A lot of them survived and lived in the mountains.

There, they united with the “cimarrones” or escaped slaves from the French side of the island. For years, they lived, and had children together. Their
children are called "Black Caribs" and now, ‘Marabous”, beautiful men and women, or mixed black and Carib Indians. Biassou, Boisrond Tonnerre, to name a few were Black Caribs.

They have a lot of Marabous in Dominican Republic, and in Haiti as well. Note that a mixture of black and white is different, it’s called “mulatto or grimo”.

One of the ancestors of the Carib Indians and the Marrons was a Marabou called Mackandal who organized the first slave revolt. Unfortunately, the revolt was not well organized, and was crushed almost instantly. Later came Bookman who realized that the marrons were from different tribes and spoke different dialects; and the best way to unify them, was through a common language, Creole, and a common spirit, Voudou.

Finally after years of battles of defeats (La Crete a Pierrot), and victories (Vertieres), around January 1804, the indigenous army declared themselves independent from France, and after more than 300 years, renamed the island its original Indian na
me, Hayiti, in honor and memory of their first true friends from the new world, ancestors and first true owners of this piece of real estate, the Carib Indians.

Finally there wasn’t any such thing so-called “Boukman Contract” with the devil...

Extremely interesting! Do not hesitate to furnish all the historical references to back up what you say here, except if it's all included in the same (excellent) sources that you recommended, that is:

L’Histoire D’Haiti, by Thomas Madiou.
The Caribbean, a traveler’s story, by James Ferguson
The Black Jacobins, by C.L.R. James
From Columbus to Castro, by Sir Eric Williams

In addition, on Boukman, see also this other article that previously appeared on the forum:
http://haitiforever.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=727

[guysanto*]

<p align=justify>

<b>Nevertheless, during my childhood, I used to see this statue located sur La Place de L’Italie au Bicentenaire, Port-au-Prince, across from the old Legislative palace.

Isn't that something??? This statue was not pure fantasy, as I was beginning to believe! (See what happens when Haitians in the "know" chita sou dèryè yo and keep silent. I am glad that Michel did not, because that's one piece of information that I otherwise would not have known, even though I am sure there must be hundreds, thousands, of Haitians who know that kind of information but will not react. Ainsi se perd la mémoire nationale.

<b>If not there, apparently, the status was stolen during the fall of Baby Doc Duvalier, 18 years ago.

Epi ou wè mèt kochon mawon yo pa menm rele anmwe! Yo vole yon gwo kochon mawon,
epi sa pa fè bri.

<b>And the iron statue of the pig was not to commemorate the ceremony held in the woods at Bois Caiman. The statue was if I am not mistaken, a gift from the Italian Embassy to the Haitian people.

Great information, which leads me to wonder about the significance of that gift: when was it given, what did it mean, in which circumstances, etc.

Hopefully, we will get more details on this post.

Fòk nou fouyapòt mezanmi. Se zafè patrimwàn nasyonal nou nap pale. Nan yon ka konsa, se pa estati kochon an ki gen enpòtans non, men gade kouman misyon evanjelik anti-Vodou yo defòme koze a. Si nou pa aprann tout ti detay verite istorik lakay nou, si nou meprize ou neglije "la vérité historique", nou san lè vale glòt-glòt tout kalite manti (vyann poul mouri santi) etranje a vin lage nan gòjèt nou.

Antouka, mèsi Michel pou tout enfòmasyon sa yo. Mèsi tou, Gelin, pou ensistans ou sou koze a.
Plizyè fwa deja, mwen konn mande enfòmasyon sou divès bagay sou fowòm lan, epi apre de ou twa mwa moun pa okipe mwen, yon degoutans pran mwen epi mwen jis retire kesyon an. Degoutans lan, se paske mwen remake ke byen souvan Ayisyen plis enterese nan fè vye enfòmasyon san tèt ni pye mache, pou yo kab domaje yon lòt, olye yo fè laverite mache. Si sa ou mande a pa frape yon lòt moun dirèkteman, yo jis ba ou vag, yo pa okipe ou. Se atitid sa yo mwen twouve ki dekourajan lakay nou. Moun lan ki gen bon enfòmasyon an, li jis kenbe l pou tèt pa l, epi li kite manti ap vale teren.

[Michel Nau*]

I heard the word Zenglendo, (thanks Guy, I was not sure about the orthography of the word) for the first time in 1991 at the Smithsonian Institute, in Washington, DC. Jean Leopold Dominique and Pere Antoine Adrien were freshly in town to exile from the Cedras regime.

They were giving a press conference for the local media. As you know, these two individuals like to sneak in some few creole words to their conversation. During the press conference, Jean or Pere Adrien referred the FRAPH organization members as “des sans mamans, et “des cochons marrons”.

One of the journalists (from the Washington Post) put his hand up for questions, and asked them to give the meaning of the words “cochons marrons, and one of them, I am not sure which one if it was Pere Adrien or Jean Dominique who translated cochons marrons as wild pigs or razorbacks, word per word as Zenglen for razor and dos for back, zenglendos.

And everybody in the room
started laughing. The journalists were so impressed with such an imaging description from first hand witnesses of the critical situation in Haiti that the next day, the word zenglendos spread like wild fire in every newspaper in the region. The rest as you know is history.


Guy, during the colonial time, calling someone a “cochon marron” was not necessarily an insult like it is today. A cochon marron was in fact a “fugitive” an outlaw, a wanted man, who dared defy his master.

They said “neg sila a se you bon kochon mawon papa! Gade Jiska prezan, yo pa janm kapab kenbe li !".

That meant a lot at that time.

Sometimes, the higher the prize for his capture, the more famous he is, and all the other slaves admired his bravura. He was a hero, a superman, and a role model. He was the talk of the town from whites as well as blacks.


Guy, to go back to Boukman, I would not be surprised if he knew how to read Arabic, the Koran. As we know, and nobody wants to talk about it, s
lavery, this horrible crime against humanity started in our own backyard, motherland Africa.

The Muslims ran lucrative slave trades long before the white man ever reached Africa. As we speak, and as many disturbing reports from modern Africa show, slavery has still not been wholly eradicated from that continent.

Current-day slave masters in Mauritania and in Sudan are black Muslims, not white Christians. To denounce the slavery practiced by black Muslims would outrage extremists like some of our friends from Ann Pale who don’t share our values.

The incredible silence of black leaders over the present day atrocities being committed in Africa by black Muslims says a lot about the hypocrisy of these racists--and tells a great deal about their real agenda.

Apparently, some forms of slavery are acceptable as long as the slave masters are from the right color and religion.


References:
Kevin Beary, “African roots: slavery was widespread on the African continent long before
Europeans appeared-and indeed, is still practiced there.” National Review, March 10, 1997.

Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson, SCAM, How the Black leadership Exploits Black America, WND Books.

Bill Sammon, “African slavery being ignored, group says; U.S. black activists deny Farrakhan factor,” The Washington Times, March 15, 1998.

Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson, Threatening the power of the black elite, “WorldNetDaily.com, August 14, 2002.

“Hannity&Colmes,” Fox News Channel, August 13, 2002.

Michael Eric Dyson, “I am Gonna Get You, Sucka,” Savoy, November 10, 2002.


Michel Nau
Washington, DC

[Serge Bellegarde*]

Gentlemen,

Very interesting reading indeed. Mèsi anpil pou enfòmasyon yo Michel.

Boukman te soti nan zile Jamayik. Koulye a, nan ki tribi esklav Lafrik li te soti, mewn pa fin twò si, paske epòk sa, esklav yo te tèlman melanje. Se konsa nou konen Henri Christophe te soti nan zile La Grenade. Li ta enteresan pou nou konen ki kote nan Lafrik la yo te soti ekzakteman.

Yon lòt ti koze sou kote nan zafè Zenglendo a. Nan lane 1840 yo, apre Soulouque te vin Prezidan, apre sa Emperè. Nou konen li te vin tounen yon diktatè ki ta pwal sèvi pou modèl pou François Duvalier. Soulouque te mete sou pye yon gwoup milisyen (yon gwoup makout) pou te fè travay sal la pou li. Gwoup makout sa te rele: Zinglins (sick). Map mande mwen si gen yon koneksyon ak Zenglendo. Se sa mwen tap di pou koulye a.

Serge

[Michel Nau*]

Serge, I believe that the partisans of President Soulouque were called “Zinglins” because of their ragged outfits, and social class, and more likely of their favorite weaponry of combat witch at that time were broken glasses, and broken bottles.

In our case, Jean Dominique translated the English word “razorback” as Zinglindos, or wild pig. Just like if you say to someone “Monchè, mouri poul ou tande”. Jean Dominique humoristically would have translated it as “ Kill your chicken my dear”.

To go back to your question about Boukman's birthplace, I don’t think that Boukman was born in Jamaica, or Christophe was born in Grenada. As you know, it is a common practice for countries to claim as one of theirs a famous person like Boukman or Christophe.

With all due respect to the Jamaican people, Boukman was too smart to be a Jamaican born at that time.

And to back up my case, if Boukman was multilingual including Arabic, it
is more likely that he learned it somewhere in the Middle East, and not on sugar cane plantations.

I believe that Boukman came from the Islamic world which did not operate on a slave system of production, but more likely security, and army. In pre-classical antiquity, most slaves appear to have been the property of kings, priests, and temples, and Boukman was one of them, a security guard, a “genie” type of slave who follows his master almost everywhere he goes, therefore exposed him to different cultures.

Serge, Guy, and internauts, one aspect of the slave trades that I didn’t learn in school is the Trans-Saharan Slave Trades, from North Africa to Ethiopia to the Middle East. My knowledge in school and I am not ashamed to admit it, was more likely limited to the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trades, from West Africa to America.

Nevertheless, we Haitians are lucky and grateful to have a slave of the caliber of Boukman to be part of our history. His contribution was priceless.

Michel Nau
r
Washington, DC

References:
www.textbookleague.org/35slave.htm
www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/lewis1.html
www.meforum.org/article/189

[Serge Bellegarde*]

Michel,

I did not say Boukman was born in Jamaica, but rather that he came from Jamaica. It should not be any surprise at all that many of our black leaders came from somewhere in Africa and once in the islands went different ways. Given the conditions in St-Domingue, it is no wonder that Boukman saw the occasion to gain freedom from the revolution in St-Domingue, and so did Christophe.

Having said that, let me tell you how much I find your statement: "With all due respect to the Jamaican people, Boukman was too smart to be a Jamaican born at that time.", totally unacceptable and out of place. I will not speculate as to what you mean exactly, but I would suggest that you refrain from making such disparaging statement. I really think it was uncalled for.

Serge

[Jonas]

Michel,

It was estimated that about 20 to 30% of the slaves were muslims.

It couln't be otherwise, most of the regions of the Senegambia, of the Niger Valley of the Kingdom of Ghana, were Islamics, since the 8th or 9th century of our era.

I hope you have heard about the city-states of Timbuktu, Gao, Jenna with their Islamic universities.

When the slave master went to Africa, he kidnapped whomever he could.

There is absolutely no contradiction in the idea that Boukman was born in Africa, was a slave in Jamaica, and escaped to the island of Haiti, and also that he was a well educated man.

[Gelin*]

Thanks to all of you....

I also used to see that statue looong time ago near the post office building, but I don't recall any "inscription" pointing to Bookman or Bois-Caïman. It would be very good to know if really it was a gift from the Italian Embassy or from any other source. The fact is there is no such thing in the country right now. But that doesn't matter much to some...

Thanks Michel...

gelin

[Michel Nau*]

Serge

What I meant to say was that logistically Boukman could not have been born in Jamaica or in Haiti, or anywhere in the Caribbean. His knowledge about languages and guerilla warfare tactic was acquired somewhere else.


You said that: ”Our black leaders came from somewhere in Africa and once in the islands went different ways”.

I don’t think so!

At the contrary, they were bonded for a common cause: FREEDOM, and self-gouvernance.

And you continued to say:” Given the conditions in St-Domingue, it is no wonder that Boukman saw the occasion to gain freedom from the revolution in St-Domingue, and so did Christophe.

I don’t think so either!

They were not opportunists as you tried to paint them. They were not plantations production slaves, rather bodyguards, coaches, or military personnel.

Serge I hope that you were not trying to
twist my comment about Boukman being too smart to be Jamaican born to backfire to my face. My intention was not malicious.

Cordially,

Michel

[Serge Bellegarde*]

Michel,

I do not wish to enter into any polemic with you, I have better use of my time and I think it is counter-productive. However, I want to tell you frankly that you are being totally dishonest. You are the one twisting what I said in the most unskillful way.

You know very well what you said. My point was not whether you might have suggested that Boukman was born in Jamaica or not. That was irrelevant to the issue right here. Whatever the case, I do take strong issue with your statement because it demeans the Jamaicans in the most disparaging way. What do you mean by "With all due respect to the Jamaican people, Boukman was too smart to be a Jamaican born at that time.". These words were uncalled for. That is not the fact, but Boukman could have well been born in Jamaica, the same way Dessalines and Toussaint were born in Haiti. Would it be strange that a smart slave could be born in Jamaica?. My point is that you have to lea
rn to respect other nationalities.

You understand very well what I mean when I say "they went different ways". This means that many of them ended up in differents islands, with certain concentrations in specific islands, of course. I am not an anthropologist and I cannot give you a breakdown, but there are many books written both by Haitians and non-Haitians giving plenty of information as to how the slaves from different regions in Africa ended up in Haiti, Jamaica, Trinidad, Suriname etc etc.

No one is disputing that they all had a common cause in freedom. Why do you bring that up, only you know. I say that Boukman saw the "occasion to gain freedom from the revolution in St.Domingue" because at the time, the slave revolution in Haiti was the only movement of that scope which threatened to unravel the colonial , slave-trading powers in the region. Therefore, the potential of the revolution spreading to neighboring islands became an urgent worry for France, England, the United States, Spain
etc. This helps explain the isolation that St-Domingue- later Haiti- became subjected to: she was a menace which had to be contained at all costs. Consult your history books and you will find numerous statements to that effect from the racists of the time.

You say " They were not opportunists as you tried to paint them. They were not plantations slaves, rather bodyguards, coaches, or military personnel." To totally misinterpret my statement as such and to "make me " suggest something like that is, to me, dishonesty. Michel, I am not used to engage in discussion on these terms. We are all adults here, so let us be serious about what we are discussing, admit when we are wrong on certain points, rectify and move on.

We all need to learn how to say things in a way that is not disparaging to others, while disagreeing strongly if necessary, but always respecting the other's views. And the same is valid with regards to ho we refer to other nationalities too.

Serge

[Michel Nau*]

Serge

I was not trying to be disrespectful to you or to the Jamaican people, if you feel that way, I am sorry.

Please don’t try to be one-sided, stay at the center where you fit very well.

There, you have a better view and your comments are well taken and unbiased--otherwise, people could start questioning your integrity.

History shows that Boukman and Christophe were heroes of the Haitian revolution, and they belong to the Haitian apotheosis. Period.

They are Haitian intellectual properties, and we will not give them up to anyone.

If Jamaica or the other British islands want to have heroes, let them start their own revolution.

Michel

[jafrikayiti*]

Serge, Michel,

May I suggest that we take a step back to revisit what was written and what may be found of value in it?

The sentence which caused Serge discomfort is the following: "With all due respect to the Jamaican people, Boukman was too smart to be a Jamaican born at that time.".

Obviously, taken litteraly this sentence does not make sense because, the second part contradict this first. To suggest that the land of Jamaica could not, at the time produce such a "smart" individual is to be disrespectful of the Jamaican people. However, I think the real problem stems not from an express desire on the part of Michel to offend the Jamaican people whom, as far as I know, are not even aware of this discussion but from a common mistake we make when communicating. We think something and we write something else. For instance, I am willing to bet that Michel Nau was thinking that, based on the slave plantation environment of the t
ime, Boukman was too "learned" to be an African slave born in Jamaica. When one knows that an African caught learning how to read and write or teaching another how to, was punished with the muzzle and sometimes even by death...I could see the value of such a statement.

Obviously, it is more likely that he arrived on the American continent with this know how, if Boukman indeed knew how to read the Quran as some historians have speculated (I must say that I am not convinced that enough primary evidence exists to support all the claims we have seen in the history books. Some of them seem rather tentative). Anyways, the issue is to make the difference between "smart" (intellectual ability) and a acquired skills (like reading and writing). We tend to confuse the two but, Toussaint (Gaou Ginou) Louverture is a perfect exemple if we always need a reminder that one can be an illiterate GENIUS, i.e. "Smart" without being necessarily "learned". Thus, Boukman could have been born in Jamaica. Although it is likel
y that the man, like Toussaint, spent most of his life with one and only one NATIONALITY: "AFRICAN kept in captivity with no land to call his own" - And, this same nationality is what we would have also inherited from them had they not fought the criminals who held them hostage wherever they were in the Americas.

For me, it is a false debate to wonder whether our Jamaican brothers should claim Boukman rather than us Haitians. What is important is that the AFRICAN, once kept in captivity on the island of Jamaica fought for freedom wherever he went...and today, free people from all over the Americas can praise and emulate the spirit of these, our honourable ancestors.

Jamayiken nou ye, Ayisyen nou ye, Pitit Lafrik NOU TOUT YE!

Bilolo!

Jafrikayiti
"Depi nan GINEN bon Nèg ap ede Nèg !"

[Serge Bellegarde*]

Jaf,

I agree with what you said. Let me reproduce what I said in my previous post: "We all need to learn how to say things in a way that is not disparaging to others, while disagreeing strongly if necessary, but always respecting the other's views. And the same is valid with regards to how we refer to other nationalities too." Simple right? Immediately after that, here is what Michel writes: "Please don’t try to be one-sided, stay at the center where you fit very well. There, you have a better view and your comments are well taken and unbiased--otherwise, people could start questioning your integrity".

The way you rephrase the sentence which creates problems for me in Michel's note is exactly what he had to say. I was hoping that he would do it himself and then, case closed. Instead, he preferred to tell me that he had found my place for me. Thanks Michel. But, let me agree with you, Jaf. This is a false debate that I will not
engage in, it is not worth it. As you rigthly say, we are all African, we will always be. We came from different areas to all meet in the Caribbean. Unfortunately, the colonial powers did such a good job of keeping us apart, of making us look so different from each other and of keeping us from learning about our common roots, that this state of mind still persists.

Kenbe fèm!

Serge

[Gelin*]

Tell me what you think: would it be a good idea to contact the people who wrote the articles about the pig statue - given that it's not true at all?

gelin

[Michel Nau*]

When I became a member of this forum, I didn’t know that I was supposed to skillful my way of writing. Until this day, I still have problem like everybody else to neutralize the language of William Shakespeare, which is a second language to a lot of us.

I thought that everything goes, and members could express their opinion as they wish, English, Spanish, French, and Creole as long as they don’t use insanity prohibited by the policy of Ann Pale or FCC.

Thank you Jaf for coming to my rescue, and for explaining quiet clear that sometime people may say sometime in English or in French, and a translator may translate it a different way.

I usually think in Creole, then in French and finalized my thought in English, and by the time I put it on paper something “lost in translation”.

A perfect case is Jean Bertrand Aristide who wrote a letter in Creole urging the Haitian people to stay calm-- and things will go back to norm
al.

Then an English translator interpreted it as a resignation letter, even though, the whole world knows that Aristide would rather fight, and may be die with his people than to resign. Nevertheless, the translation could have been wrong, and as you know the rest is history.

Map kite nou ak ou ti histoire. Sa raple mouin, les mouin te piti, les nou fe desodre nan lacou l’ecole la, frere la te conin rele nou devan bureau li pu nou tout sa juge, et bye nou ou chance pou nou defend comportenant nou.

Et bien mon cher, camarade la ki pale francais pi bien an, se li mem ki toujou gagne argument la, mem si ce li mem ki antor.

Frere la kite li ale, et se noun mem ki pa fini trop fort nan langu blanc la ki pran kout batons

Mes ci Serge, Jaf

Depi nan Ginen bon negs ap ede negs.

Continue ak bon travail la (keep the good work!)

ma le

Michel

[jafrikayiti*]

Michel,

It doesn't take a lot of english to say: "I made a mistake!". What it takes is a little humility. In english, french or creole, people recognize it for what it is.

A question:

Is a child born today in the mud of Site Katon less "smart" than one born today in a fully computerised hospital in Washington D.C.?

No need to answer Michel. Honestly, I think this issue has been beaten to death already.

As can be seen in the tone of your messages Michel, your primary concern is not always the sharing of information. For instance, I was quite happy to see the info you provided about Makandal, Boukman etc... the request for references was equally important because, some of the information you brought was not widely known. For instance, I am still intrigued by the identification of Makandal as "Marabou".

For instance you wrote:

Just like in America, we still have the Apaches, the
Cherokees, the Comanches, the Mohicans, the Seminoles. A lot of them survived and lived in the mountains.

There, they united with the “cimarrones” or escaped slaves from the French side of the island. For years, they lived, and had children together. Their children are called "Black Caribs" and now, ‘Marabous”, beautiful (???) men and women, or mixed black and Carib Indians. Biassou, Boisrond Tonnerre, to name a few were Black Caribs...


One of the ancestors of the Carib Indians and the Marrons was a Marabou called Mackandal

Again, I would like to see references to support the factual elements of the above statements. Because, from all the sources I have seen, there were NEVER any "Apaches, Cherokees, Comanches, Mohicans, or Seminoles" in Haiti. In "les marrons de la liberté" Fouchard speaks of some surviving Tainos who indeed had children with our African ancestors in the mountain
s and he even mentions some cases of mixed slaves captured or on the run, advertised in "La Gazette de St-Domingue". But, no other groups of native peoples are identified for our island. And, I never saw any reference to Makandal being of mixed heritage. So, I would certainly like to know the source you used. Unfortunately, when asked earlier by Guy to provide some references, you remained very vague, giving no citation from the sources you had listed and, instead you went on to invite a diversion to the discussion, which I decided to ignore, while knowing full well that I was one of those you targeted when you wrote:

The incredible silence of black leaders over the present day atrocities being committed in Africa by black Muslims says a lot about the hypocrisy of these racists--and tells a great deal about their real agenda.

Apparently, some forms of slavery are acceptable as long as the slave masters are from the right color and religion.

I did not
answer you then because the real discussion about the Iron Pig and the origins of Makandal, Boukman etc... is really of interest and I would not want to help a diversion occur when we still have not even seen the references to support the very interesting hypotheses you presented on these topics.

But, If tyou wish to discuss your perception that some Pan-African Nationalists consider some forms of slavery acceptable - which I contend to be an erroneous perception - we could discuss that on a seperate thread. But, let us first finish this exchange on the Iron Pig, get the references and if you do have more insight to share on the potential "smartness" of island born Vs. "Middle-Eastern" trained Africans???, I would like to benefit from it of course.

Michel Nau wrote:

Boukman was multilingual including Arabic, it is more likely that he learned it somewhere in the Middle East, and not on sugar cane plantations.

B.t.w.why did you say Middle-East
not AFRICA?

As per Jonas' post, weren't the following kingdoms in Africa and not in the "Middle-East": Timbuktu, Mali, Songhay, Egypt....?

This, once again, could be seen as an anti-African taint in your writings Michel.

Jafrikayiti
"Depi nan Ginen bon Nèg ap ede Nèg!"

[Gelin*]

Jaf:

I would also like to learn more from Michel about the story of that famous iron pig statue. Who really gave it to the haitian people? On what occasion? Now, where is it? I also think I'll have to contact the people who spread (by their articles) that lie about Haiti through the web...

gelin

[Serge Bellegarde*]

Gentlemen,

I sincerely hope you all can get a straight and clear answer from Michel, because we all could benefit from these historical facts.

I never knew either that these other Indian tribes had been found in Haiti. LIke you Jaf, I knew of the Tainos, the Caribs who were in many other Caribbean islands, but not these.
Interesting issue to follow!.

Serge

[Michel Nau*]

I did not say that we had American Indians in Haiti. I believe that I said: Just like in America, where they still have the Apaches, the Cherokees, the Comanches, the Mohicans, the Seminoles. A lot of them survived and lived in the mountains.

The Black Caribs from the Caribbean survived as well the extermination just like the American Indians did.

http://www.lacc.cc.ca.us/academic/depar ... reGarinagu

I will bring more references about Black Caribs another time.

The incredible silence of black leaders over the present day atrocities being committed in Africa by black Muslims says a lot about the hypocrisy of these racists--and tells a great deal about their real agenda.

That statement is more likely an Ibid from Reverend Jesse Peterson book titled “Scam” not from me.

Boukman was multilingual including Arabic; i
t is more likely that he learned it somewhere in the Middle East, and not on sugar cane plantations.

I did not mention Africa like you were expected me to, because I was referring to the ethnicity and cultural background of Boukman’s knowledge, and skills and not a particular geographical location.

This, once again, could be seen as an anti-African taint in your writings

I am not anti-African. I just don’t want to push the envelope to far left, and distort history.

Michel

[Serge Bellegarde*]

Michel,

We try to have some serious discussions on this forum. Often, there are honest disagreements about an issue; we have exchanges; rectifications are made so that in the end, everyone can learn something new or look at a problem from a different angle. This requires a certain degree of honesty in raising certain issues. I cannot speak for Jaf or Jonas or Gelin, but I find it very difficult to discuss any of the issues you raised for the simple reason that, either knowingly or unknowingly, you shift from one thing to another, from one statement to another, or you subtly modify your own statement. That is not serious. COmpare what you said earlier:

"The Carib Indians specially the women were not completely exterminated by the Spanish. Just like in America, we still have the Apaches, the Cherokees, the Comanches, the Mohicans, the Seminoles. A lot of them survived and lived in the mountains...";

to what you are saying now
:

"I did not say that we had American Indians in Haiti. I believe that I said: Just like in America, where they still have the Apaches, the Cherokees, the Comanches, the Mohicans, the Seminoles. A lot of them survived and lived in the mountains.."

Michel, just what did you mean to say finally?

"I am not anti-African. I just don’t want to push the envelope to far left, and distort history."

What in the world are you saying? Do you understand what you are writing? Are you suggesting that the left distorts history and the right does not? In which case, you would be from the right, I suppose.

I am not an English speaker, but I know enough English to read it properly. I believe it is Jaf who had said that it just takes a little humility to admit a mistake. That is the gospel truth. Either you do not know what that means, or you take us for fools on this forum. Either way, this requires some rectification.


Serge

[Michel Nau*]

Gentlemen

I believe that we have said more than enough on this issue.

Please let’s move on!

[Jonas]

Michel,

It would help if you read about African history before the European penetration. You don't have to go as far back to the "Egyptian period" either.

Do you know that about half the vocabulary of "Swahili", the main language of East Africa, is Arabic?

And you don't have to consult "black authors" either, to know about the history of the ALMOHAVIDS, the Muslim movement which took birth in the Niger Valley and went to occupy SPAIN and PORTUGAL, for about two centuries.

The Muslims north of the Sahara were called ALMOHADS, and those south of the Sahara were called ALMOHAVIDS.

M ALE!

[Gelin*]

Now, back to the pig statue...

I contacted a couple of authors among those who spread that story. The one who would be the original source of this legend told me that his article was in fact outdated - meaning that he left the information there while knowing that there was no such a thing as an "iron pig statue" in Haiti. The guy has since removed his statement, but people continue to quote him without even taking the time to double-check their source....

Nap siiiv....

gelin

[Pauline Charles]

From the iron pig, to Boukman, to Muslims in Portugal and Spain, I have learned a lot from this forum. I laughed at times and got puzzled at other times.

To all of you Michel, Jaf, Jonas, Gelin, I think, your disagreements, clarifications, all added to my enlightenment.

We all learned something at the end.

One thing I noticed, there is no woman at all in this "iron pig statue" discussion.

Pauline

[Gelin*]

M'te kontakte kèk nan moun yo ki te kouri bri zafè estati kochon an. Sanble ke youn nan yo ta retire pawòl sa a nan atik li te ekri a. Nou ka al verifye sa pou kont nou tou nan youn nan referans m'te bay mwa desanm ki sòt pase la a.

sa pa pi mal ke sa...genlè gen espwa

gelin