Religion and sexism

[Nekita Lamour*]

Dear Friends,

Religion be it Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, they all had played a role in sexism. But christianity had played a bigger role in racism, mental, and physical colonization. It is very difficult after more than 500 years to let the church goers in the Third World know what they have been learning is not good for them, though it makes them "feel good". The version of christianity they give to the Thirld World is not what the First World educated christians practice. For instance, though they are a growing number of immigrants in many Western countries, are those immigrants receiving the training that will allow them to be missionaries in the “poor” countries that they come from? There are not too many white nuns, priests and brothers as they were when I was growing up. Now a lot of lay white men and women are going as missionaries since High school age in Third World countries.

The women are in majorit
y church attendants who are being “evangelized by men”. If you are a Black catholic in the United States, more likely you priest is white. In the immigrant churches, it is even worse. They send the least prepared, the least capable priests to “evangelize” the immigrants. If they are white, the poor immigrants think they are God. If they are from their own culture in our case Haitians, they think they are Jesus. They have all the knowledge in the world. The concept that the priest is the only one who can read and write in a community seems to prevail in the immigrant church communities. Unless you are lucky to find a conscencious priest or bishop, more likely, they have priest that they will not send in an ‘educated’ parish to “evangelize” the immigrants. So you have the continuous cycle of ignorance right here in United States. The priests know that the poor immigrants believe in them even though they are not giving them a 21st century evangelization.

The church goers rely on the priests or pastors to
teach them, to make them part of this "Information Age" something that those clerics will not do and don’t have the training to do so. I don’t like to play the “ blame” game. In my catholic context, all the Haitians have to do is read the bulletins in their own catholic churches, their diocesan papers, go the “american” churches,read the church documents which are on the web, get to the internet and ask the priest, write to the bishops and tell them they want the same programs, the same “evangelization” that are in the churches that most Haitians share with the americans. But they are waiting or depending on the priests to hand them those pieces of literature.

One thing I like about the catholic church is its hierachy. You can write from the deacon, to the priest, to the bishop, to the pope. They will give it some attention if they get a number of letters. What I am seeing in the church is everybody seems happy about the way things are even though they don’t realize that there are not too many people
who have completed more than ninth grade in the United States in their midst, at least in my area.

I put some numbers in Creole in the spirituality section. Though all kind of learning is available, the Haitian church goers I am familiar with in my area, have not showed any interest in learning about anything even the church they go to. Since l995 until I was told two years ago that "my presence" in an adhoc parish council "is conflicted" I have been talking about formation, learning, education, but the poor churchgoers are waiting for the priests or deacons to "teach" them. Even the women ' group leaders" in those churches are waiting for the priest to teach them. Since 1973, no church person had ever given me any thing in print in my church, not even the bible.
I feel bad for the sons and daughters of the "church goers" who are being raised in this kind of environment, if they don't end up in jail or in Haiti by the time they are in their 20's. What can one do in such hopeless case?


Nekita

[Empress Verite]

Greetings Nekita and all:

I find it interesting and downright disturbing that with all the media coverage about the issue no one has come forward in the Haitian catholic church to discuss their experiences with abuse. I know for sure that in my town in Leoganne the priest had mistresses and children. He was killed in an accident. And also with the amount of child and sexual abuse that I knew of while growing up both in Haiti and the US I know that there was abuse in the Catholic church. In fact, I would go as far as to accuse the Protestant churches in Haitian communities of perpetrating the same abuses as I experienced it in my own life.

There are scholars working on the issue. One professor, Terri Rey at Florida International University's religious studies can be consulted for some of the issues. However, I fear that he is a missionary cloaked in a garb of liberal dogma and seductive breedin
g that has the majority of the poor Haitian populace drooling and the middle and upper class elite in want.

Keep writting about this issue there is a vast and I have seen some stuff about sexism and African American women in the same light that you wrote about it. Great line of inquiry.

Kenbe.

[Nekita Lamour*]

Empress,

Sexual abuse is not an issue that is discussed in the Haitian milieu, be it in church or in the secular area. Edwige 's first novel " Breath Eyes and Memory" related the issue of " testing". It's a mother testing her daughter to ascertain she is a virgin. Guitele Rahill published " Violated" in 2001. Another story about child molestation in the Haitian setting.

I am in Boston where the sexual abuse crisis started. The diocese had had a series of listening sessions around the issues. I remember in my parish council I said " When will we have " listening sessions". A Haitian woman said there is no time. As I wrote, the people depend on the priest to initiate anything. It's an enigma with what is happening in the church, the parishioners still see those clerics as God.

I really don't know what to say. As can see, there are not too many people from Boston or clergy be it catholic or p
rotestants in the internet. I know they read the posts, but they don't intervene.

It's a combination of a culture of fear and indifference. My dear brothers and sisters if we are not speaking out, our behaviors, our inaction will affect decisions that are taken by policy makers in this country. Speaking is part of being contributing members of this society.

Bye
Nekita

[Bouli*]

Nekita,

You said: ” The version of christianity they give to the Thirld World is not what the First World educated christians practice.” I share that thought with you in reference to America. From what I heard, religion doesn’t influence people from industrialized countries as it does in the U. S. and many impoverished countries. Also when one looked at “results” from the last elections in the U.S., one can say Americans are more inclined to religious manipulation than many less educated nations in the world. U.S. Evangelical Christian men would like things to remain almost the same as they were in the beginning.

Did any woman witness the Council of Nice decisions? Any influent woman would find a better formula of Trinity, I think. Sometimes I try to understand why women frequent these institutions; they contribute so much physically, spiritually, socially, economically…yet remain voiceless in decision making. Is it because t
hey feel guilty of Adam and Eve story, the daughters of Noah’s, the daughter of Pilate’s, the instructions of Saul…or they just like to be good consumers? (A sister told me once: It’s because Jesus remains the most available bachelor up there”).

Women are great spiritual leaders in their daily life. That’s why I believe they’ll free themselves in a short future from the fear of a two devils system that a gang of pervert gay men invented in the process demonized women.

I guarantee, if by next Sunday women would choose to stop going to church, in less than a month Vatican and its clones would settle for more women to be on the other side of the cash registry.

Kenbe la,

[Marilyn*]

Not being Haitian, I don't know if my contribution on this subject can shed any light, but at least I'll try.

I cannot speak to the racism aspect, but:

1) I can address from personal experience the sexism aspect as it relates to how uncomfortable male church leaders are to allow for the development of female leadership within the Evangelical Wing of the Protestant Church in the U.S. In fact, how aggressively they work toward extinguishing it.

Back in the mid-1970s and throughout the 1980s, when I was a missionary within the Evangelical Wing of the Protestant Church, I met no resistance from church leadership when I was willing to work as a secretary. The moment I recognized that I had leadership skills and tried to develop them further and then to exercise them, the walls and ceilings of the Evangelical Church figuratively hardened and even had steel bars erected. As a young widow, I even faced a formal charge of child negl
ect by the pastor of my homechurch back in Massachusetts because of the growing success of the cross-denominational work I was doing in New Jersey. The underlying premise: How could a single mother NOT neglect her children by speaking at large religious conferences and retreats, hosting prayer meetings and Bible Studies for new converts, etc.? Surely Marilyn MUST be neglecting her 3 children. No evidence. Just sexism. I faced the charges in person at a Church Council. The members of the Council were so positively touched by my presentation to them of how I was balancing all of my responsibilities, they voted to increase my monthly stipend and gave their ongoing blessing to my ministry. A few weeks later, the minister was fired. But I have to tell you, it was a horrible experience to have to go through just to have the right to continue to exercise my spiritual gifts and calling.

My only path to meaningful exercise of my spiritual and leadership gifts was within the Liberal Wing of the Protestant Church
. Especially the United Methodist Church, even though I was not a Methodist. Through their Board of Global Ministries, my assignment to the Methodist Publishing House and Lay Training Center at Frères was expedited and, although I was not one of the UMC's official missionaries, they funded my housing, vehicle, schooling costs for my kids at Union School, and ministry expenses. In fact, they supplied all the funds to build, furnish and equip the Publishing House and Center. Once health problems forced my departure from Haiti, I was then offered by the UMC all expenses paid, housing, a vehicle, and a stipend to pursue a career track toward formal training for the pastoral ministry in Illinois. I turned down the offer because I sensed a continued calling related to Haiti. Instead, I took the work route at MIT, learned the computer, and started working in my spare time at creating Haitian Creole publishing solutions.

2) I can also address from personal experience how both Protestant and Catholic clergy ac
ted inappropriately toward me as a young widow.

3) I can also address from personal experience how an Evangelical Protestant leader (this time a woman) dictated that all those in her control within a Conference Ground / Retirement Community / Nursing Home setting vote for Ronald Reagan, God's chosen candidate for President back in the 1980s. My daughter and I took great pride in the fact that both she and I negated at least 2 of those votes, even if in the eyes of the community we were both headed straight to Hell.

[Marilyn*]

Part B.

Now let me address more fully the final 2 aspects listed in my above post:

2) I can also address from personal experience how both Protestant and Catholic clergy acted inappropriately toward me as a young widow.

Within hours of the breaking of the high-profile newspaper coverage of my husband's death in Africa, I received a telephone call from a Boston Evangelical Protestant church leader I had never before met, offering to "comfort me". When I asked how, he stammered and said: "Well you know...You don't have a husband now... Surely you will be lonely... I can help... You know...". And then deep breathing. I hung up the phone abruptly.

Having been raised Catholic, I reached out to the Priest who had been my Youth Leader. He had been relocated to the Washington, DC area, so my 3 kids and I went down to visit him, as well as some of our relatives. The kids and I stayed at a DC hotel. The day we spent with the
Priest was really great. He took us out to eat. He took us to Arlington Cemetery. We saw the JFK eternal flame. He took us to the Washington Monument. He took us to the White House. He took us back to the hotel. He invited me to have a drink with him. Not yet knowing any better, I agreed. After the one drink, on the elevator back up to the room to rejoin the kids who were watching TV, he kissed me and pawed all over me. I was horrified. He asked me to sleep with him. I didn't. And out the window went any hope of finding appropriate behavior out of any clergy of any denomination. I'd have to figure out on my own how to deal with my new station in life.

3) I can also address from personal experience how an Evangelical Protestant leader (this time a woman) dictated that all those in her control within a Conference Ground / Retirement Community / Nursing Home setting vote for Ronald Reagan, God's chosen candidate for President back in the 1980s. My daughter and I took great pride in the fact that both s
he and I negated at least 2 of those votes, even if in the eyes of the community we were both headed straight to Hell.

This is no joke. When I was recovering from my first spinal surgery, my kids and I stayed at an Evangelical Religious Campground in rural Connecticut. It was a beautiful place in which to recuperate and learn to walk again. I was there for almost 4 years because I had to undergo further spinal surgery and further recovery and rehabilitation.

By then, my spirit had been liberated by my experiences in Haiti and with the United Methodist Church, and was immune to the mind-control methods of the Fundamentalists. They were kind people. But very controlling of behavior and thought and expression.

This was never more pronounced than it was before Presidential Election Time. For weeks before the election, at every meal, at every gathering, at every religious service, we were told how much God wanted Ronald Reagan to be elected. Being a contrarian by then, even if I had not alread
y been a Democrat, I would have voted Democrat just out of spite! But it was amazing how everybody except my daughter and I were swept away with Reagan Mania.


That experience, more than any other in my life, has helped me to understand the influence that Church Leaders had during this most recent election.

And it's scary!

Marilyn

[Bouli*]

Marilyn,

Thanks for sharing with us your personal experiences with various religious entities you have encountered in your journey. In spite being abused both verbally and physically by two perverts named spiritual leaders you didn’t nourish a hate toward the structure that produces them. You rather found within yourself positive energies to guide you away from sexual predators and other corrupt elements genuine to the reputation of Church culture.

In my opinion, the moral value you project is controversial to the theology these institutions are selling their clients in masses. Worst of all you’re a woman. In the sense that you’d constitute a bad influence for the majority of women adapted to that pimp culture by rote.

I hope your stories reach as many women possible. They could learn how this type of alienation could strengthen their character, open new venues to build better institutions…Evangelical sects, will continue to play down women, while busy licensing born-again rights to male thugs. It becomes evident they are doing so just for charities or other monetary incentives. It seems, there’s no room for unpredicted behavior or change of culture. Isn’t a crime in Haiti now to feed the poor without a “laisser passer” from invisible officials? Definitely, Church prelates don’t have guts to side with the poor when the “riches” debts reach panic level.

A few hard working women will try to prove their bosses, they can perform as bad as wicked men. I still can’t picture women assaulting a man the way it happened to you twice. The level of insanity we are experiencing on earth today won’t stop tomorrow, by itself, nor by miracle. We need strong leaders, crusaders to help wake-up the sleepwalking oppressed populations.

Kenbe la,

[jafrikayiti*]

Wow !

Thank you all. Especially Marilyn for this powerful testimony. I just wanted to put these two lines in there to let you all know that I am fully appreciative of this discussion.

Kenbe fèm !

[Bouli*]

Nekita,

We both applaud the fact that more women are studying theology in the intent they won’t follow the actual current. As you mentioned in your previous messages, how women were active in Churches a couple thousands years ago. It’s no longer the case. I figure these female theologians will reverse the situation back to a better future.

Women suffered major setbacks, and it didn’t affect women only. It was the whole village’s lost. I don’t know if you’re still with me, Jesus has also lost the revolution in the process. Not because he was tortured to death on the Empire’s symbol of “Père Lebrun “, because the Empire stole the story and switch the messengers. The search for freedom automatically became search for renouncement, resignation, servitude, sacrifice, …obedience to the Empire.

Since we’re living in the most severe democracy in the world. Let’s zoom the image a little bit closer. The Catholic grandmothe
r next door who funded the education of the priest upstairs with her tax money is watching her 15 year old grand-daughter carry a child for the same pervert upstairs who christened her not long ago. What option is left to the youth and the old lady?

The Empire said: Unless you’re using your own money. It won’t pay even if both women chose to stop the pregnancy. The Church said, it would stone and open the Hell Gate wide to both if they even think of options.

Can these victims fight that power held by a few wicked men alone?

I ask these questions because I know the answers are beyond the old scripts. We just miss a milestone November 2nd., we need to catch up with the future. I think that's why Marilyn said:"It's scary".


Kenbe la,

[Gelin*]

A quote from Bouli:

"<B>...I don’t know if you’re still with me, <u>Jesus has also lost the revolution in the process</u>. Not because he was tortured to death on the Empire’s symbol of “Père Lebrun “, because the Empire stole the story and switch the messengers...</B>"

Actullay he hasn't. Jesus himself warned future believers (and possibly truth-seekers) about the wolves that would come in sheep's clothings: <B>"<U>Watch out</U> for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves." (Mat 7:15)</B>

The truth of the matter is that too many people associate the message of Jesus with what is merely a man-made religious system. In other words, most church-goers today simply do not take Jesus' warnings seriously, and they have paid and will continue to pay a very heavy price for that. Bouli, Jesus has not lost, nor has his message been conquered by the powers of darkness. What he sta
rted 2000 years ago is still around, but the counterfeit is obviously more popular. That's ok, too.

gelin

[Nekita Lamour*]

Matye 7,15 Pran prekosyon nou ak fo pwofèt yo. Yo pran pòz ti mouton yo lè y'ap vin sou nou, men nan fon kè yo, se bèt devoran yo ye.

Matthieu 7,15   Gardez-vous des faux prophètes. Ils viennent à vous en vêtement de brebis, mais au dedans ce sont des loups ravisseurs.[/img][/b]

[Bouli*]

Gelin said:
“…most church-goers today simply do not take Jesus' warnings seriously, and they have paid and will continue to pay a very heavy price for that.”

Thanks Gelin. I hope Nekita is taking note. This is exactly what I was trying to say earlier, when I said Jesus has lost the revolution. In fact I should have said the battle. You acknowledge false prophets (wolves) run the churches and identify churchgoers as sheep. What other results should we expect watching sheep running after wolves?

We have seen it over…over…over…and it will continue to happen. When are we finally going to identify our natural predators? Jesus may win one day, when sheep stop diving into wolves’ jaws.

Gelin said: “The truth of the matter is that too many people associate the message of Jesus with what is merely a man-made religious system.”

I only believe there’s more than one true. We have found in history Jesus was a man made
God in a man made religious system. The man had a family like everyone else. He was supposed to be an official leader to his nation. He rather become a spiritual leader who mentally equipped his people to resist a brutal colonization by a super Empire…

We have found ourselves inside that religious system that designed a common purpose for our life, which was to abandon every original dream we could inspire, made sure we die poor to keep a ghost somewhere happy, and the ghost in return promises to be good to us endlessly.

Any criminal knows how to take advantage of that system. Wolves have the ability to become sheep, reborn, born again…you name it they do it. Que la lumière soit, baton. Of course the rules are more complex toward the sheep. They can only have one faith or none. Why? It is written.

I get news for them. Some of us have the freedom to have as many faiths as we judge necessary. Why? If wolves have choices to pull their fifth and/or faith cards as often as they
do, one better believe it, goats have theirs also.

Kenbe la,

[Gelin*]

Bouli:

I see something slightly (maybe) different:

I only believe there’s more than one true. We have found in history Jesus was a man made God in a man made religious system. The man had a family like everyone else. He was supposed to be an official leader to his nation. He rather become a spiritual leader who mentally equipped his people to resist a brutal colonization by a super Empire…

Jesus started his movement way before the religious system we have today. However, (now, understand me well) he was not focused on equipping his followers to resist the brutal colonization of Rome. He equipped them first to identify evil in their own lives and resist it, to renew themselves, to start the new life from within, and to spread the message as best as they could. Now, the new way of life meant death for hundreds of his followers, exactly at the hands of roman soldiers and offi
ciers. Centuries later, Rome (then in decline) attemped to assimilate the new way of life (philosophy, religion....give it the name you want) because death and torture were not scary enough to force people to deny their faith. Then, and only then, we started to have a strong marriage between (so-called) christianity and the roman empire. Result: the roman catholic church first, and then the vatican, and so on...

[Bouli*]

Gelin,

I agree. We're not too far apart. The new way of life is still in vogue in Palestines and other parts of the world today (dying for hundreds). They have discovered the wolves, but that message doesn't reach Jesus’ western followers yet.

The wolves rather have been on the offensive in the western Latin churches. The message is retreat, obedience, die, die now or hell. No chance for a sheep to survive. Let's trap the wolves.

[Gelin*]

Bouli:

History teaches us that powerful nations or societies have always used anything at their disposal to pursue their own objectives, whatever they may be. If it's a tradition, they'll use it. If it's a religious system, they'll use it too. If it's just a favorable natural environment, that also will be used. A good example is christianity and Rome.

At first, adpets of the new way of life were persecuted and executed, beginning with Jesus himself who died crucified at the hands of roman soldiers. Next, his apostles were exiled, tortured and killed by Rome, all of this because they refused to worship the emperor as a god. But when it became more convenient for Rome to embrace the message rather than oppose it, guess what happened? Rome became christian officially - but with a theology different from what Jesus taught. Now the christians (Rome-style and by name only) were persecuting and killing non-christians, and the orders
still came from Rome. Where Jesus said "you should love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you", Rome said 'In the name of the Lord, destroy and kill your enemies'..and so on...

In spite of all this, however, I think that what Jesus started is still around and available today. That's what I have come to understand, and that's what I believe.

gelin

[Bouli*]

Gelin said:

"History teaches us that powerful nations or societies have always used anything at their disposal to pursue their own objectives…”

By powerful nations I assume you ‘re referring to countries that possess weapons of mass destruction, right? As powerful Rome was, it couldn’t get rid of a dead Jesus. The son of man was to become God. Something he wouldn’t achieve with a powerful army (with Guns). History gave us many examples. Martin Luther King with an army wouldn’t win the Civil Rights war either. I don’t know how many tanks UN soldiers need in Haiti to feel safe, but I don’t think they are afraid of guns in the streets of P.a.P.. They are afraid of the Washington/France/Canada lies more than anything.

Rome built Christianity with Jesus, but it couldn’t make those who were living with the man believe Jesus was part of a god. Obviously, the message had to change to something other than search for freedom.
We have to mention at the time, belief in the Trinity was the dogma. You either confirm your belief with "Amen" or face death. Many people had chosen death. How powerful was that statement?

Gelin wrote: “Where Jesus said: "you should love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you"…)"

It doesn’t matter how one says it, this statement needs a lot of adjustments. Gelin, I know you like logic. I would like to know what you think of these words (of Jesus, you said). Can one have enemy without hate? Unless there’s time limit established by (?) today. The Telebans need to communicate these words to George W. Again, like you said: “Rome said 'In the name of the Lord, destroy and kill your enemies'..and so on...,” George W. practices Rome’s version, so the nation as a whole doesn’t have to love their enemies.

To conclude, Gelin said: “In spite of all this, however, I think that what Jesus started is still around and available today. That's what I have come to understand, and th
at's what I believe.”

Personally, I thank you for sharing your deep thoughts and beliefs with us. As many of us acknowledge, we do have options now, not without battles. In fact, the powerful ones have lost ground. Gelin, how do you call people "who would do anything to pursue their own objectives" (crimes)? One more thing I would like to know your views on, is which one of the true stories of Jesus you have chosen? (Whether he was part of The Team who conceptualized Universe? Was he another man who had strong opinions? Was he half man half god…half spirit, half woman…come out of a woman who remained virgin? …a freedom activist or else?

Kenbe la,

[Gelin*]

Hi Bouli:

Let me try to address your points one by one....

1. "...Rome built Christianity with Jesus..."

Rome did not build christianity. Rome tried to crush the new way of life by killing its leader first (Jesus), and by terrorizing, tourturing and destroying his followers. I could agree with you that Rome built <I>its own version of christianity.</I>

2. "...Can one have enemy without hate?..."

Absolutely. Our ancestors who were brought as slaves to the new world were hated by their masters. The potential slave was considered an enemy when he/she wasn't even aware of such a thing as a slave plantation in St-Domingue. Do you see what I mean? Someone can hate you because of your skin color or your ethnic background for example, and threat you as enemy even when you don't know. That's what Jesus was talking about, and that's also the principle Martin Luther King was following with his "power to love". Remember
, no matter what you do, it's always possible to find somebody who doesn't like you - for that's just the way it is. For those people, Jesus asks his followers to pray.

3. "Jesus....come out of a woman who remained virgin...?.."

A professor of genetics told me once that theoretically Jesus could have been born by parthenogenesis (when a female individual - plant or animal - gives birth without fertilization with male gametes). This event happens frequently in plants and lower animals and would not be a genetic impossibility for humans.

Bouli, I'll come back later to the more difficult questions..:-)

gelin

[Bouli*]

Gelin,

I’ll keep my argument concerning Rome with Christianity until History proven otherwise. This is what I’ve learned so far:

Rome built The Roman Catholic Church to swallow Jesus resurrection’s belief out of fear. Because Cesar had foreseen troubles for the Empire with the rate that story was spreading. The Empire did hijack Jesus fellowship to a new level. It became an institution with its rules under the Roman umbrella. Thereafter, the empire set a new calendar year starting with Jesus birth year. Maybe the Christian idea was not originated from the Empire. However, Rome made that belief the corner stone of its official religion coexisting with its previous pagan beliefs…

To answer my question: Can one have enemy without hate? Gelin wrote:
“Absolutely. Our ancestors who were brought as slaves to the new world were hated by their masters. The potential slave was considered an enemy when he/she wasn't even
aware of such a thing as a slave plantation in St-Domingue. Do you see what I mean?”

Sincerely, I don’t see what you mean. I believe you pick an ironic example to press on the forum’s nerves. Maybe you’re just looking for excitements. Or like myself, you’re another victim of “Les Frères de l’Instruction Chretienne”…You’ll let us know…

I am going to leave you with “Lafimen” a publication of Jafrikayiti on our History that illustrates the events you described passively above… as such our grand fathers did not know if they were hosts on cruise ships traveling with friends to a new continent or kidnapped to be enslaved on foreign lands…Ayiti, Guadeloupe, Martinique, Cuba, Bresil…by (people who’d do anything to achieve their objective) Christians.

M’ap kite-w ak Jaf nan chapit: “Sou bato Negriye”

…” Lavèy anvan yo te chwe nan kal bato negriye sa a, genyen ki te Rwa, gran kiltivatè, doktè, istoryen nan kanton yo, nan youn moman tout sa te kaba. Tout nèg, tout nègès te esklav, yo t a
p jemi youn sèl soufrans endiyasyon, youn sèl doulè san parèy. Toutouni, antòtye nan chenn sou planch frèt la, nan tenèb kacho kal batiman an kote yo pa konn si l lajounen si l lannuit, rèl anmwey te anvayi zorèy ak lespri yo nan tout lang: Senegal, Yolòf, Banbara, Mandeng, Bisago, Daome, Rada, Kongo, Kanga, Yorouba, Malenmbe elatriye… Sant watè, pipi ak vomi 600 krityen vivan melanje ak pourisman plizyè lòt ki gentan mouri nan chenn t ap konsantre nan sèvo chak malere lanmò pat vle ranmase…”

Jaf ajoute kèk son spesyal sou CD a pandan l’ap rankonte listwa, pou-l rapwoche oditè yo de evenman ki t’ap dewoule nan vwayaj malouk sa.

“Rèl ou ap koute la yo se pa rèl zanimo, se rèl youn manman ki sere fyèl ap gade ki jan bouwo pann pitit gason l. Yo ekspoze l tèt anba nan kòd ma bato negriye pou l ka trepase. Se rèl jenn gason 17 an sa a ki te deside revòlte kont sanginè Fransè, Pòtigè, Anglè osnon Olandè ki te ranmase l ak plizyè lòt Afriken tout peyi tout lang epi fèmen yo nan kal bato negriye.
Se rèl grangrangran nou ak grangranpapa nou…

Istoryen yo di n , espas kal bato lanfè sa a te kalkile eksprè pou li pran 4 nèg nan chak mèt kare. Sa vle di: chak
moun te nan youn espas ki pi piti pase youn sèkèy ki fèt sou mezi l.

Pandan kalvè sa a, maladi tout kalite t ap propaje, gen pliyè nèg ak nègès ki pèdi tèt yo, gen lòt ki chwazi pa manje jouk yo mouri, gen lot ki profite neye tèt yo nan lanmè, si posib ak youn ou de blan, pandan yo fè yo monte pou flite kò yo ak dlo. Gen manman ki suiside tèt yo ak tout ti bebe yo…”

Now you have an idea why I did get what you meant.

Gelin wrote: “Someone can hate you because of your skin color or your ethnic background for example, and threat you as enemy even when you don't know.”

I agree with the first part, but what stops you from acknowledging a threat toward you? I hope you don’t drop on your knees close your eyes…pray in front of your enemy. Of course if everybody would pract
ice that, there would not be an enemy left.

I also like what your professor of genetics told you about Jesus. The only difference it keeps on happening to plants.


Kenbe la,

[Gelin*]

Gelin, I’ll keep my argument concerning Rome with Christianity until History proven otherwise. This is what I’ve learned so far: Rome built The Roman Catholic Church to swallow Jesus resurrection’s belief out of fear.

You are right but the roman catholic church IS NOT what Jesus started in Jerusalem. He did not even start his group in Rome.

Sincerely, I don’t see what you mean. I believe you pick an ironic example to press on the forum’s nerves. Maybe you’re just looking for excitements. Or like myself, you’re another victim of “Les Frères de l’Instruction Chretienne”…You’ll let us know…

No Bouli, I am not this kind of guy. Maybe I wasn't clear enough, so let me try again. Yes I think you can have people consider you as their enemy even when you are not aware of it, or didn't do anything to deserve it. Racial or religious prejudice is a go
od example. Regarding the slave trade, we can safely agree that the captives didn't know where they were going because they had never made that trip before. I am as much haitian as you are, and as much appalled by the horrors of slavery as you are; but the slaves themselves (as Jaf explained it) were going about their own business in their own countries when they were 'captured'. That's what I mean by being an enemy without knowing it. Oftentimes in the US blacks are kidnapped and/or killed by racist whites when all they did was being different.

...what stops you from acknowledging a threat toward you?

Well there are more than one way to react to a specific threat toward you.

I also like what your professor of genetics told you about Jesus. The only difference it keeps on happening to plants.

I mentioned this just to point to the 'scientific' possibility of such an event. The term itself means 'virgi
n birth'. Now, each religion has their own 'internal logic' without which it could not exist for there would be no followers. In that context, people who believe that God created everything, and has the power to perform any kind of miracle would not have any problem seeing the virgin birth as a possibility - since the God who created us is all-powerful. This enters into the internal logic of that faith. On the other hand, people who believe there is no God at all will only laugh at the idea of the virgin birth, but would concede that it's a natural impossibility given that the same phenomenon has been observed in plants and lower animals. They would likely concede that the fact that it's not been observed in humans is NOT in itself a solid reason to say that it cannot or has never happened.

Kenbe la,

gelin