CUYAHOGA County of Ohio, birthplace of new U.S. Democracy?

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Post by admin » Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:39 pm

[quote]29 precincts in Cuyahoga County, Ohio, reported votes cast IN EXCESS of the number of registered voters - at least 93,136 extra votes total. And the numbers are right there on the official Cuyahoga County Board of Elections website[/quote]
It has become quite clear to me that the Republicans STOLE the elections in Ohio, and consequently the National Elections as well.

The whole country, if it were truly passionate about democracy, should now be saying: "You fool me once, shame on you. You fool me twice, SHAME ON ME !" But the Republicans correctly calculated that there would not be enough outrage, enough anger, to truly rock the boat.

So Life and War goes on.

Something will shake up America from its torpor, but right now I cannot imagine what that will be.

Guy S. Antoine


Afterthought: Those people who engineered the fraud on behalf of Bush a
nd Co., are they going to be used as consultants for the upcoming elections in Iraq and Haiti? Of course they will! It would be such a waste of skills between U.S. elections, otherwise. Their resumes are impressive. Twice the White House (forever the World?)

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Post by Lakat » Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:39 am

Hello all! I hope to join your discussions on a regular basis so here goes my first post!

I can't begin to express how outraged I have been about Kerry conceding when he promised he would fight for us (I know, I sound very naive!). Also the Democratic National Committee..laid down and died. All the while asking for more donations. HA! Well, folks, this will illustrate to you as maybe nothing else can; we need to take our country back ourselves, without looking to politicians to do it for us.

Never again should we turn our back on the foxes guarding the henhouse (Congress). We have to watch each and every Senator and Representative to make sure they do their best for ALL of us. We have abdicated our responsibilities to our democracy for too long and this is what we have wrought.

If we want voter fraud to be investigated and the election results to be challanged, we must do it ourselves (as many non-g
overnmental groups are now doing). We must shame the cowardly Democratic Party (boy could they use the Wizard of Oz right now!) into doing the right thing. They look like a dog who's just been beaten with a stick!

I for one could give less of a damn about Kerry winning office after his pathetic concession speech, but by God if he is found to have won, he will serve!

Does anyone get the idea that these are common men (not financial-wise but character-wise and courage-wise)? I mean mediocre men, not men of excellence that you would expect to achieve the highest office in the most powerful country in the world. I want my president to be top quality...better than I could be! Why do I have to have a president who is less than I am?? That scares me and should scare all of us who feel he is most inferior. Why would anyone want a president, who has his finger on the button that could destroy us all, who has less than average intelligence or character?

Anyway, and amazingly this is m
y real point, it galls me that so many people, including Kerry and his party, want us to "move on" and "let go." Do you remember the last time you heard those words, Windows folk? Why I believe it was when Aristide was taken from Haiti and an interim government installed. I DON'T WANT TO MOVE ON!!! Everytime we move on without challanging crimes committed against us, we ensure that we will be the victims of more and more crimes. In the parlance of phsycotherapy, we are "enabling" them to do harmful things to us. We need to stop doing this and fight.

Never give up...never never never!

Regards to all of you, especially our vaunted leader!

Kathy~

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Mon Nov 22, 2004 12:56 pm

Kathy,

Are you the Kathy on the Corbett list? If so, I want to tell you how pleased I am you are on Ann Pale. Based on what I read from you when I was on the Corbett list, I look forward to great exchanges with your involvement in them.

Kathy, I must confess I was not a great fan of John Kerry. But since he was the democratic nominee, I would have done everything to help his candidacy. However, he broke my heart when he insisted that he would have still voted YES for the war even after knowing that they were no weapons of mass destruction (WMD) found in Irak. He let G.W. Bush (GWB) off the hook with the bad intelligence excuse. As a democrat, for the life of me, I could not explain that position. By that time, even Republicans were conceding that they were no strong links found between Al Qaida and Irak. So, if you don't have Al Qaida links, no WMDs what is the rationale for a humanist to go to war? So, if he is not that different
than GWB, why would people vote for him when they know GWB and they don't know him?

Kathy, unlike you, I found Kerry's concession speech among the most moving if not the most moving of his presidential elections campaign. Has he given many like this one before, in my opinion, the presidency would have been his to lose. But, I still don't know if you can hold the country hanging waiting to find evidence of fraud when all you have does not indicate that it would have changed the results.

The Republicans have been very deft at hiding their dirty hands lately. The last time they got caught badly was in Watergate. But, lately, they have been smarter than us in so doing. I understand that the Democrats are still investigating the elections. It is not clear to me how exactly they are conducting that investigation. But if something illegal happened, I don't see how you can hold the process of electing the president when the evidence you have is not strong enough to challenge the results. If someth
ing is found later after an investigation, you still can go and challenge his legitimacy and expose their dirty tricks. I am not sure that the statute of limitation on fraudulent elections expires after concession by the opposing candidate.


Jean-Marie

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Response to Jean-Marie

Post by Lakat » Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:17 am

Jean Marie:
Are you the Kathy on the Corbett list? If so, I want to tell you how pleased I am you are on Ann Pale. Based on what I read from you when I was on the Corbett list, I look forward to great exchanges with your involvement in them.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Yes, I am that Kathy, I quit that list a few months ago because I was no longer able to be civil to many people who wrote there. And it upset me to read the lies that were allowed to go unchallenged. I feel this forum is a better place to discuss things that I deeply care about with others who care as much or more than I do. Thank you so much for your kind words; I look forward to many lively exchanges!

I agree with you 100% about Kerry and like you, I had such trouble with him over this war. I think focus groups led them to believe that most Americans were pro-war (a big mistake). That's what happens
when you do not follow your principles but instead try to figure out what the people will like. STILL...he was the alternative to Bush and I fought for him the whole way.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Kathy, unlike you, I found Kerry's concession speech among the most moving if not the most moving of his presidential elections campaign. Has he given many like this one before, in my opinion, the presidency would have been his to lose. But, I still don't know if you can hold the country hanging waiting to find evidence of fraud when all you have does not indicate that it would have changed the results.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
First of all I think he was brilliant in the first debate and very good in the subsequent ones. I think he should have been the clear winner based on those three outings alone. He looked and acted presidential while the president snarled, mugged and whined.

As for the fraud. I believe that Kerry won this election. I believe the fraud was w
idespread and even the media polls were faked to make people feel it was much closer than it was. Many people were duped into not voting or making mistakes so they couldn't vote. To me this is criminal and people should be held accountable. Even if we can't prove who perpetrated the fraud, the outcome should be changed to reflect the true vote counts. Every time you let someone get away with stealing, you teach them what you will tolerate and how loose your boundaries are. You cannot blame them for continuing to defraud you. No, it needs to stop now. I feel the same about what happened in Haiti. They sped through that coup so fast no one even paid attention, except for those of us who were screaming silently (like the famous painting). All that screaming and no sound comes out. No one hears or even stops what they are doing. And they get bolder and bolder.

I am reminded (as I have been since 9/11) of the Germans as the Nazis were taking over. Even the Jews didn't fight because they KNE
W their countrymen would not do such horrible things to human beings. They ignored the warning signs until it was too late. I feel the people of the United States (half of them anyway) are like the Germans, smiling, looking away from anything unpleasant. Supporting their fuhrer...president no matter what he does or what he says. They are still paying a heavy price today for their willingness to look the other way as their country descended into hell.


The Republicans have been very deft at hiding their dirty hands lately. The last time they got caught badly was in Watergate. But, lately, they have been smarter than us in so doing.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
They don't have to be deft, this time around they OWN the media AND the judiciary. Do you think this is accidental? Oh no; they KNEW they were going to do bad things and they wanted to clear the way so as to avoid the Nixon trap. They even declined to join the rest of the world in
the world court because they knew they had things to hide internationally and refused to be subject to anyone else's judgement. Also, they believe they are not subject to the Geneva Convention and are free to torture and kill at will without regard for international law. Still the American public turns away and looks at the pretty birdy (or flower or whatever the hell they are looking at!)
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I understand that the Democrats are still investigating the elections.... But if something illegal happened, I don't see how you can hold the process of electing the president when the evidence you have is not strong enough to challenge the results.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I believe the evidence is strong enough to make that challenge. Despite the desperate actions of the elections officials to destroy it.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I am not sure that the statute of limitation on fraudulent elections expires after concession by the opposing candidate
.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
A candidate's concession speech is not legally binding, it is a courtesy only. He may concede all he wants but to me, it is a betrayal of all he promised us. He promised to fight to make sure every vote counted. Say, do you think those who gave up, did so under threat of harm to their careers or families? It's just a thought. They did give up mighty quick. Either that or the bastards are the same as the Republicans and it's just a game to them. For us, it's life and death. I think we can't count on anyone helping us but ourselves. I suggest we organize.

Thank you again for your wonderful response and please forgive me my intensity...I'm scared to death here.

Kathy~

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Post by Lakat » Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:39 am

Hi Marilyn! Thanks for the greeting, I am happy to be here among you. It is a blessing these days to be with people who share your beliefs and concerns. Our media can make us feel alone in those things and I think the reality is, there are many people who feel as we do. They may not know Haiti but they know we are in danger of losing what has made America great.

Ever since it became apparent that Aristide and democracy would not be returning to Haiti until this administration was gone, I have switched my focus to the election and seeing that the US experience regime change too. I believe with the failure to unseat the incumbent, we will be seeing the US become more and more like Haiti. That is why, for the survival of Haiti and for us here in the United States, I will keep fighting to oppose this regime.

The people (us!) usually rise to greater heights when faced with adversity, and I believe we are heading f
or dark times in this country, which none of us has ever experienced in our lifetimes. Hopefully, we will respond with courage and character and we will take our country back.

I have been hanging out at BuzzFlash.com to find alternate news but there is rarely a mention of Haiti, the travesty in our own back yard. It's hard to hear the news from Haiti I feel so helpless. My heart breaks every day for the misery imposed on those people. Where are our heroes? Could it be so ugly as wanting to reduce the population of people who don't matter. Surely I will be in that group if that's the case!

Gee, wonder why I don't get invited to parties any more!

Anyway Marilyn, thanks again for your warm welcome, I'm sure happy to be here!

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Post by admin » Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:12 pm

Kathy,

I am not going to welcome you. I am just going to congratulate myself for having found just the right words to nudge you to come (back) to our forum. Even though I was a bit cruel... but by whatever means necessary.

I wrote a long reply to your second note, your reply to Jean-Marie, which I thought was simply brilliant, but I wanted to add to it and then, just as I finished the last sentence... my screen went blank. Darn it! Does George Bush or Homeland Security live in my computer?? Anyway, I'll try to compose it again tonight, as I have other things to do now. But I do invite everyone to re-read your note, because you said so many things that were so right in just a few sentences. I did not think that was possible. Wow!

Talk to you later, all.

Guy

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Post by Lakat » Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:49 pm

Hey Jaf!

Thanks for the welcome! I am happy to be among such good company!

At the risk of sounding like an echo, I too have enjoyed your posts through the years and honestly you have inspired me many times to keep up my courage and my hope. Onward and upward!


Thank you Jaf!

Kathy~

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Post by Lakat » Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:02 am

[quote]by whatever means necessary[/quote]

Hahahaha! Now you sound like a Republican. Are you SURE you are Guy the Webmaster? I guess I don't mind your sneaky tactics because you were right, I should have come here before. Change is hard for me..;).

I have had that blank screen thing happen to me too and of course I was BRILLIANT in the lost script. Doesn't that remind you of the fish that got away? I look forward to your response in the second version.

Thanks for your kind words Guy and thanks for the welcome that was not a welcome (you made me feel welcome anyway!)

Much respect and fondness to you and all Ann Pale folks,

Kathy~

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Post by Lakat » Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:10 am

Serge,

Thanks for writing and introducing yourself. I'd like to respond to your scenario.

[quote]I believe that on December 13, the electoral College will officially declare Bush the winner , right? [/quote]

I agree that this is the most likely thing to happen.

[quote]Will the Democrats have enough guts to go all the way?[/quote]

This is what I wanted to respond to. I am not confident that the Democratic Party has the guts to do anything. The way they conceded so fast was shocking. I wrote them an email and said just that. I also wrote to James Carville and accused him of being less than brilliant this time around and also challanging his character and principles. I wonder if politics is without these things. I think we will have to poke and prod those people every step of the way. Th
ere are few heroes there...maybe Obama....maybe.

Kathy~

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Post by admin » Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:54 am

[quote]Every time you let someone get away with stealing, you teach them what you will tolerate and how loose your boundaries are. You cannot blame them for continuing to defraud you. No, it needs to stop now. [/quote]
We may have entered the Dark Ages, Kathy. The Republicans will certainly feel emboldened by their deft stealing of two successive elections. The citizenry is in no mood for a fight à la Ukraine. They do not even want to ask the hard questions. The evidence of thievery in these elections is overwhelming...hey, for those asking for evidence, please just explain the official results of Cuyahoga county: 39% overvote, that is 139% of registered voters (even 100% would have been hard to believe!) -- 93,000 more votes than registered voters in a single county, when the entire state posted only 130,000 more votes for Bush than Kerry. Some would stare those 93,000 fraudulent votes (a
nd likely a whole lot more... when was the last time every one of Cuyahoga county's registered voters actually voted - that is 100% of them? - so, you see, it is conceivable that Cuyahoga county alone might account for over 130,000 fraudulent votes - now throw in the irrgularities in all other counties in Ohio, in Florida, in the entire country, and tell me: just what is your measure of confidence that these past elections truly reflected the will of the majority of U.S. citizens?), yes, some stare at the evidence and say: "Where is the proof?" All I can say is that the Republicans are not dumb enough to leave us the proof, but we just have to follow the elephant's dung piles. Follow them to see where they lead -- or, if you like, just clean up after them, without asking any question. If it suits them, they can always say, yes the dung piles are all over the place, but there is truly no evidence that the elephant has passed this way. I'll say, suit yourself, because then, as the saying goes, you will ha
ve gotten the government that you truly deserve.

[quote]I feel the same about what happened in Haiti. They sped through that coup so fast no one even paid attention, except for those of us who were screaming silently (like the famous painting).[/quote]
Exactly! Some are still wondering whether the U.S. led the regime change in Haiti. No amount of evidence of what transpired before, during, and after, will ever convince them. But I bet you that every peasant in Haiti understands what role the Blan actually played in the financing of the coup, in the arming of the rebels, in the precise conduct of the warfare culminating in the forced departure of their elected president, in the formation of the de facto government, in the running of the show since then. To those who were clamoring for an abrupt end to the constitutional government, I feel equally tempted to say: 'Suit yourself, because surely, as the saying goes, you have gotten the government that you truly deserve.'
However, how could I forget all those who did not participate in, even fought to the death against this treasonous surrender of Haiti's sovereignty to the Blan (the French and the Americans) in 2004, the year of the bicentennial of our independence???

[quote]All that screaming and no sound comes out. No one hears or even stops what they are doing. And they get bolder and bolder. [/quote]
[quote]I am reminded (as I have been since 9/11) of the Germans as the Nazis were taking over. Even the Jews didn't fight because they KNEW their countrymen would not do such horrible things to human beings. They ignored the warning signs until it was too late. I feel the people of the United States (half of them anyway) are like the Germans, smiling, looking away from anything unpleasant. Supporting their fuhrer...president no matter what he does or what he says. They are still paying a heavy price today for their willingness to look the other way as their
country descended into hell.[/quote]
[quote]They even declined to join the rest of the world in the world court because they knew they had things to hide internationally and refused to be subject to anyone else's judgement. Also, they believe they are not subject to the Geneva Convention and are free to torture and kill at will without regard for international law. Still the American public turns away and looks at the pretty birdy (or flower or whatever the hell they are looking at!)[/quote]
Kathy, I had written several pages in support of those three quotes above, but then I lost them due to a computer malfunction. I haven't found the time to recollect all of my thoughts and present them again in a coherent way. However, that is perhaps not necessary, because you said it all so well. We too will have a heavy price to pay, like the Germans, for looking the other way when they were stealing elections, for looking the other way when they were trampling on
human rights, for looking the other way when they were furthering the aims of imperialism by crushing poor nations and the free spirit of other peoples the world over.

And we will have no one to blame but us, as a nation. The pretty birdy or flower (or whatever the hell they are looking at, as you say) will be of little consolation, if any.

[quote]They did give up mighty quick. Either that or the bastards are the same as the Republicans and it's just a game to them. For us, it's life and death. I think we can't count on anyone helping us but ourselves. I suggest we organize. [/quote]
I am with you, Kathy. All the way. Thanks for expressing your thoughts concisely and so well. They have the ring of truth.

We may ignore them at our own expense.

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Post by Lakat » Sun Nov 28, 2004 5:19 pm

Guy, as usual, we agree on everything. The only thing that keeps my hope alive in these Dark Ages we are beginning is the knowledge that I am not alone in what I think and believe. For as many people who are content to live in the dark there are people like us who reach for the light. Somehow we have to keep bringing the light to the others. Nothing in my lifetime has prepared me for this moment and I am still confused as to what we should do to preserve ourselves.

I knew when Aristide first took office in 1991 that it was not going to be pretty. I knew the old guard (a nice name for not-nice people) would fight like hell to keep from losing their sweet spot in Haiti. When you look at all the fledgling democracies with all the numbers of people behind them struggling to stay alive and functional when the power elite are trying to go back to the old ways of oligarchy and privilege you can see what we are up against, no
t only in Haiti but here in the US where we are experiencing such a return to class warfare. I believed that television had worked in democracys favor, showing the people of the world what was possible and what they should have. Information once kept from the masses was now available. Once people taste freedom, they can't bear to live without it. But money corrupts. The wealthy bought people to hurt their own people. Do you realize what kind of mental illness this causes to the survivors of such an arrangement? Haitians know...and soon, we will know in the United States. We will turn on our own, for self-preservation or mis-guided patriotism, religion or some such nonsense.

I also agree with you, Guy, that we will in time bear the same stigma as the German people do. But I swear I will live out my life being true to my ideals and those of the people I hold dear. Isn't it odd that some of those people I have never met but still, call friend and certainly hold dear. What a world.


I talked to a friend recently on the phone. He is a Haitian man, a teacher and he told me that he was teaching class in high school and he carefully but truthfully talked about Iraq and what we are doing there. He told me FIVE children walked out of his classroom, refusing to listen to what he had to say. He was shaken and he vowed never to talk about Iraq again. This as much as anything saddens and frightens me. How could this happen to us? How could we have sunk so low? Now our children are today's brownshirts??

I hear the Republicans are trying to get rid of the filibuster, the last strength of the Democrats in a lopsided Congress. Dan Rather and Tom Brokaw have retired, making room for more right-wing fanatics in the newsroom.

It is a breathtakingly beautiful day here in Pasadena, CA. The sky so blue, the sun so brilliant, the trees and flowers so lovely and the rose colored mountains that are the backdrop of my fair city are belying the underlying ugliness that threatens to brea
k through the surface of all that beauty and bounty.

One thing strikes me, the Haitian people, knowing the deadly repercussions, still demonstrate for Aristide and democracy. They teach us a lesson in fighting for your country and for freedom from tyranny. God bless us all.

Thank you, Guy for being there and for providing this forum for those who truly care about Haiti and the US. Like it or not, these two countries are inextricably entwined in history, in the present and in the future. We must heal the US before we can heal our beloved Haiti. Thank you also for your kind words that never fail to encourage me onward and upward.


Onè/Respè

Kathy~

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Post by admin » Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:29 am


CUYAHOGA to Bush on his inauguration, today!

CUYAHOGA!

CUYAHOGA!

After three years of war preparation and war-mongering, Washington cannot (?) still deliver to the troops in Iraq the armor that they need to protect themselves, but will spend 40 million (+) dollars to celebrate a dubious electoral victory.

CUYAHOGA!

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Obama, wherefore art thou, Obama?

Post by Lakat » Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:29 am

This is a lesson to me not to revere politicians of any kind! I am very disappointed that only two Democrats on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee voted against recommending Rice to the Senate, Kerry and Boxer (bless her heart...Kerry can bless his own!!). Senator Obama voted for her and Feinstein (no way I am voting for her in 2006!!!) too, was among the yays. I can't tell you how much hope I had for this man...and now I see he is just another politician. Martin Luther King said the people must make the changes and not look to the government to do it. He was right. Movements throughout history have been started by the people not the government. We MAKE them make changes. Obama is not going to help us. We must help ourselves.

Courage people!

Kathy~

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