The kidnapping game in Haiti

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The kidnapping game in Haiti

Post by admin » Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:26 pm

The level of seemingly gratuitous violence in Haiti has affected the Haitian psyche in recent days in worse ways than could have been predicted even a few months ago. People, including children, get routinely kidnapped (incredibly, we have become accustomed to such bad news). Ransom is asked in exchange for their release and ransom is paid. Every single time a ransom is paid, it encourages even more kidnappings but what can one do? Ransom is paid after negotiations in the hope of seeing one's loved one alive again (after release, we'll simply find a way to get out of this miserable hellhole of a country but let's get him/her alive first... even if it encourages even more kidnappings). Prayers are not enough for a deeply religious people. Money talks faster, and in a language that even godless bandits understand. The Trinity of God appears triply bewildered by Haitian affairs, triply impotent or triply indifferent. The Haitian Government... hello? It's the Haitian Government, what do you expect?!! The International Community, as presently constituted, could never be relied on from the moment they killed all the Indians on the Island and forcibly replaced them with enslaved "free men" from Africa. We kicked their butts once and they have been kicking ours ever since. So where do we turn? Bottom line, we have got to see our loved ones, one more time. After that, n'ap demele nou jan nou kapab (we'll find a way somehow) so that it does not happen to us again. We surely did something wrong, didn't we? We must not have been careful enough. We should not have left our loved one alone in that moment or entrusted him/her in the care of others. We should have warned him/her to take a different route, to stay home that day or to get outside of home. Anything we did or did not do. It must have been our fault. It did not happen to our neighbor. Could it be the neighbor? Perish the thought. But what about the people we pay to take care of our loved ones? Could it be them? Come to think of it... how can we ever trust anyone? For all we know, it might even be the police! Where do we turn? No one, no one, no one is reliable. We feel alone... The Man Upstairs, we do not understand his ways. The Man Downstairs, he may well be implicated. Where do we turn?

The Diaspora? They have radio stations where people call and denounce the kidnappings all day long. They blame the Haitian Government for all things that go wrong, but in the end they introduce not a single solution. Priez, mes frères et soeurs, ou organisons un autre coup d'état parce qu'il faut que les choses changent. Mais, plus ça change plus c'est la même chose. Ou la chose empire. When have things ever gotten better for Haiti? Oh yeah... there was that huge moment of hope, back in 1986. It built up to a crescendo through five incredible years, and the hope came crashing down for all of us who had dared to hope. Just as the hope built up from 1791 to 1804. Ayiti... ki sa w fè w'ap peye?

But hope never dies. Long gone are the flowers strewn on the streets of Port-au-Prince. Long gone are the buckets of fresh paints. Long gone are the white doves and the washing of the feet. But our hope is just as urgent, in fact more so than ever. This hope has been downsized to match our despair, but it will not let go. It is the hope of seeing our loved ones one more time. We'll beg, borrow or steal to pay those kidnappers, whomever they may be. Hope - or whatever remains of it - has a currency, and it is the US dollar. We might even be grateful to those kidnappers if they just take our money and leave our loved one relatively unharmed. We'll be grateful for their generosity and thank our Lord for his unfailing attention.

Please take our money... and be on your way!! We will survive, we always have.

But what's happening today? What has happened to the loved ones after ransom has been paid? They are killed anyway and in the most brutal, the most inhumane fashion. How could it be? What is left to hope for?

We are confused. We hurt now beyond the limits of endurance. Nothing seems to make sense anymore. Is this a new, even harsher, reality for the Haitian people? Has the currency of hope changed from the U.S. dollar to something we cannot comprehend yet?

Whatever it is, we have to understand it. Because we have no more blood to give.

Let's resolve to stop feeding the beast today, because in the end the beast will devour us. It has grabbed us by the throat and is applying pressure. Will we implore the beast or kill it before it kill us? That's the junction we have come to today. Any false move may be fatal... for our loved ones, for our society, for our way of life.

What should we do?

Leonel JB

It is reality

Post by Leonel JB » Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:11 pm

Some Human'Rights need to be violated.-

Haiti needs a Complete clean-up where having any gun would make you subject to be arrested.

We need more People in the Police or Army.

We also need to investigate the Security companies who are making a lot of money from insecurity!!!!

The list goes on and on.

My opinion, the so-called Democracy would need to be ignored sometimes...

And Guy, most of the time, the God-fearing People are more cruel than the God-less ones :twisted:

Leonel

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Post by admin » Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:34 am

[quote]Some Human Rights need to be violated. [/quote]
Really? Just what do you mean, Leonel? Haiti has not exactly been known for not violating human rights, you know. If you mean that criminals should be arrested and locked up, that's in no way violating their human rights. No one has the right not to be arrested after committing a heinous crime or being the intellectual author of such crime. The tricky thing though is to identify the criminals, in whatever position they may be in Haitian society and (yes!) be merciless in the application of remedies when that person happens to be someone of influence - a rich businessman, a politician, a foreign diplomat, a law and order operative from the HNP or MINUSTAH, a high society individual (ou "personne de bonne famille", etc.

Usually, if the criminal happens to be a poor person from the slums of Port-au-Prince, then no one would have any qualm about applying a zero tolerance application of the law with regard to that individual. On the other hand, if the mastermind happens to be a member of some powerful elites then all bets are off, because that's when we tend to become concerned about violations of human rights.

Human rights do not need to be violated, and for society's own good, they should not be. But the enforcement of laws does not equate with violation of human rights. It's important NOT TO play loose with the words, because if we do, we all become confused about what is permissible and what is not. I don't believe that we should go down that path.

The Rule of Law is entirely compatible with a culture of Human Rights. The worst problem that we face in Haiti is the non-identification or false identification of crime perpetrators. As a society, we have long ago become resigned with "l'enquête se poursuit" and "forgive and forget".

What Haiti needs desperately is prosecution. Impartial, even zealous, prosecution until we've dealt a death blow to that culture of impunity we have been wallowing in for decades. We don't need more violations of human rights, but a strict enforcement of the laws that protect our human rights.

Questions: If you were the designated prosecutor in Haiti, how would you go about identifying correctly and without prejudice those who are responsible for the kidnappings and other social crimes that are being committed (robberies, rapes etc)?

What tools or technologies might you need?

How can you trace the flow of money (from hand to hand to hand)?

How do you go about collecting forensic evidence?

Could substantial rewards be set up, not to pay kidnappers, but instead to foil them? Something along the lines of: produce some hard evidence (photos, videotapes, audio recordings, verifiable observations, etc) leading to the arrest and/or successful prosecution of a hardened criminal and you will get some monetary award that was set up for that purpose.

Intelligence training? GPS technologies? Hidden cameras? Anything and everything. Haiti is a small country, a very small country. Most of the social crimes are limited to the surroundings of one city, that is Port-au-Prince. I bet that in protecting the President of the United States, the FBI and the CIA and other security agencies listen to more conversations every single day than there are telephones in all of Port-au-Prince. Furthermore, I bet that you would not need more than a dozen highly skilled investigators to bust every kidnapping ring in Port-au-Prince.

Where there is a will, there is a way.

We just do not have the will yet. Or we are simply too dumb or too satisfied and simply point an accusatory finger at someone else before we have a single shred of evidence. No evidence, no prosecution. Just a bunch of editorializing on the radio, blaming whatever government happens to be in charge or not in charge. Meanwhile, no money is being traced. Ransom gets collected with the greatest of ease. No police action ever takes place at the right place and the right time. The closest Haitian people ever come to smelling a real investigation is by watching reruns of Columbo on television.

L'enquête se poursuit.

This culture of impunity and incompetence has got to stop.

Michel Nau_

Post by Michel Nau_ » Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:43 pm

Guy wrote: [quote]But what's happening today? What has happened to the loved ones after ransom has been paid? They are killed anyway and in the most brutal, the most inhumane fashion. How could it be? [/quote]Haiti an Marche ba w repons la:[quote]Dans un tel cas, le kidnappeur (ou plus souvent le commanditaire du crime) est ordinairement connu de la victime. Et l'on risque une tragédie comme dans le cas de cette jeune personne. [/quote]When a criminal get caught in the act, the first thing he does, is to eliminate the witnesses which in this case, the young girl is also the victim.
Guy wrote: [quote]What should we do? This culture of impunity and incompetence has got to stop.[/quote] Pa retè bwa kwazè e palè bel pawol met la!!
Show them the punishment!!!
The justice system ought to should show the punishment.
Bayo yon leson ke yo pap jamb blye!!

When I was in 6th grade at FIC in Petion-Ville, we had as our professor a young 25 years old rookie brother from Belgium.
The first day of class he said to us: I am going to the bathroom, and when I return, I want to see everybody is seated.”
A few minutes later when he came back, he caught 3 of us standing.
He gave us a beating; he beat the crap out of us.
Since then, and through the rest of the school year, we were the first to be seated, and anywhere we could find.
Le bouda movè, li chita atè!!

What is the message here??
The punishment!!!
He had shown us and to the rest of the class the punishment!!

What is the punishment if a criminal kidnapper gets caught???

Somebody please tell us!!

The Haitian justice system ought to show the punishment!!

Michel

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Post by admin » Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:46 pm

[quote]What is the punishment if a criminal kidnapper gets caught???

Somebody please tell us!! [/quote]
Michel, your proposed solution to the wave of kidnappings in Haiti is to show them the punishment!!!

That's fine by me, but for this thread to go beyond the usual generalities, machismo, and knee-jerk reactions, we'll have to be more specific.

To apply the punishment, I assume that, first of all, you'll have to catch a kidnapper (I assume that you do not advocate applying the punishment on an innocent party, just to demonstrate SHOCK AND AWE. So, a kidnapper would have to be caught (describe for us a likely scenario), arrested, tried, and found guilty, right?

If you want to use a different process, let me know.

Let's move on to the punishment phase.

What punishment do you think would be appropriate?

Would you apply it to any guilty party just the same?

How confident are you that your prescribed solution will eliminate the problem?

Leonel JB

Post by Leonel JB » Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:26 pm

Depi oun moun yo depOte'w. Ou pwal nan prizon anvan pou yo detEmine ki gravite zak ou a.
Depi oun moun se kidnapE ke ou ye, ou prale nan peyi san chapo. San jijman (ou pa gen dwa ankO).
Mwen pa gen tan. Men m'ap retounen sou bliye dwa de lOm daprE gouvEnman pa'm nan.

Georges J Leonel, Prefet

Michel Nau_

Post by Michel Nau_ » Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:36 pm

Guy wrote: [quote]To apply the punishment, I assume that, first of all, ….a kidnapper would have to be caught (describe for us a likely scenario), arrested, tried, and found guilty, right?
If you want to use a different process, let me know. [/quote]
I believe that you got it right Guy. As you said, kidnappers have to be caught, have their day in court, and if found guilty by the jurors from the court, the proceeding judge should apply the correct punishment that they deserve.

[quote]What punishment do you think would be appropriate?[/quote]
Guy, the punishment should fit the crime. Prefe Leonel has the fitness solution; unfortunately, Good Samaritan Frantz cautioned him that there is no capital punishment in Haiti. Shuuuuut he almost forgot.
Nevertheless, I agree with Leonel, the punishment should fit the crime. Kriminel pa gen dwa pou mache sou moun de byen. As Leonel said, these criminals gave up their human right. They are animals and be seen as such!!

[quote]Would you apply it to any guilty party just the same? [/quote]
Guy, the punishment should be the same for everyone regardless of social and/or economic background. This is the decisive moment for the Preval/Alexis government to show transparency, integrity, and justice for all.

[quote]How confident are you that your prescribed solution will eliminate the problem?[/quote]
Now is the time, during this holiday season, when the Diaspora and friends are planning to come to spend vacation and money, when the economy is as its pick, the Preval/Alexis government has a golden opportunity to show to the Haitian people and to the world that they are serious of applying tough punishments that should fit the crimes and across the board.

This is it!!
There is no turning back.
They are under the spot light. Jwet pou yo!!
The Preval/Alexis government has a duty and an obligation toward the Haitian people to catch these criminals and to drag them to justice.
Preval said to the criminals: Drop your gun or you die by it!!
Montre tout moun ke fwa sa, se pa pawol met la!!!

Mr. President, the world is waiting for you to put your words into action!!
Show them that you are up to the job!!

Mr. Alexis, don't be a "Nouri Al Maliki", show good governance!!

Good Luck and good night!

Michel

Tidodo_

Post by Tidodo_ » Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:02 am

I was surprised in August when I tried to find opinions on this subject by posting some analysis on this, NO ONE replied to it. Frankly, I thought you guys did not care. I am glad to see that I was wrong! Here is the link:

http://www.haitiforever.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6311

[quote]Le problème d'insecurité est un problème très malheureux en Haiti. Il n'y a rien de nouveau dans ce que je viens de dire. Mais, en ecoutant Victor Benoit commenter sur ce problème hier à la radio, je me souviens comment il est perçu en Haiti, comme tout autre problème en Haiti, "il suffit d'avoir un "bon" et nouveau gouvernement et un problème disparaitra du jour au lendemain."

Il y a deux gros problèmes en Haiti. Le premier est que l'haitien, en general, [peut-être que je regretterai d'avoir generalisé] parait comprendre que le gouvernement est la solution de tous ces problèmes et qu'il n'a pas de role, sinon aucun, qu'il doit jouer là dedans. Le deuxième est que, "avec un bon gouvernement, les problèmes, y inclus l'insecurite, se resoudront du jour au lendemain."

Certainement, le premier problème a ete debattu sur plusieurs forums sans personellement avoir obtenu satisfaction que le gouvernement sera le "panacea" de la majorite des problemes en Haiti. Mais mon focus ici etait sur le 2eme problème. Même avec une administration competente et de bonne foi, il prendra des années avant que le taux de criminalite en Haiti, particulierement le kidnapping, s'abaisse à un plus ou moins similaire que ce qu'il etait dans les annees 80. Naturellement, je fais des speculations ici, car je regarde le problème par une fenêtre de l'exterieur. Mais les defis qui se posent à toute authorité pour combattre ce problème prendront du temps à surmonter.

A mon avis, il y a deux approches qui devront être necessaires pour une solution. L'un sera l'enforcement de la loi, l'approche sur qui tout le monde se concentre. L'autre sera le renforcement social de bon voisinage. Le premier sera la prerogative d'une administration publique. Le deuxième sera celle des voisins de ne plus tolerer les kidnappeurs dans leur sein.

Le premier piège qu'il faudra gérer pour un enforcement de la loi par un gouvernement sera d'eviter d'utiliser des mesures non-democratiques, à -la-Duvalier. Mais, utiliser des mesures democratiques prend du temps, d'où mon analyse. La première chose à faire est de rendre très couteuse, en termes de perte de liberté et autre penalite, la commission d'un crime. Cela necessitera un systéme de justice qui fonctionne. Presentement, il n'existe pas en Haiti. Les efforts dans les dix dernières années pour l'instaurer ont échoué. La deuxième sera de pouvoir identifier les criminels courants et les criminels potentiels pour pouvoir les traduire en justice. Il n'y a pas de personnel preparé, non seulement quantitativement mais aussi qualitativement, pour cette tache en Haiti. Ca prendra du temps pour arriver à ce point là. Même si on y arrive, il faudra maintenant pouvoir reformer ces criminels là dans des facilités de detention qui sont non seulement inadequates presentement, mais aussi insuffisantes. En d'autres termes, arrêter les gens, mais quoi faire avec une fois arrêtés! Si on doit les relacher, on recommence a zero. Batir de nouveaux penitentiers prendra au moins une année ou deux même si on a les fonds necessaires pour financer leur construction. Trouver et entrainner le personnel adequat pour les gerer prendra encore beaucoup plus de temps, sans mentionner les fonds necessaires pour les payer.

Remarque que jusqu'à present je n'ai même pas mentionné l'appareil judiciare qui devra se prononcer sur leur sort. Ca aussi est dans le même piteux etat qui necessitera des années à réformer. Une fois l'appareil judiciare et le systeme d'enforcement en place, il prendra du temps avant de convaincre le criminel que son crime ne paiera plus et ainsi le decourager. Tout ceci c'est sans même pouvoir etablir la capacite, la competence et les resources d'une administration publique qui peut faire fonctionner un système d'emforcement qu'elle aura mis sur pied.

La presence d'un système d'enforcement de lois à lui-même ne sera pas suffisante pour decourager la criminalite. Il faudra du temps pour convaincre le criminel qu'il ne vaut pas la peine. Toute societe est toujours remplie de recidivistes. Il faudra plusieurs repetitions d'enforcement pour certains avant de les convaincre qu'il y a un appareil judiciaire en place qui rendra leurs efforts non-fructueux. Ici, on parle de plusieurs periodes de sentence non-commuée. Par faute de temps, je ne pourrai pas etablir tout le parcours que devra passer un système de restitution d'ordre social avant d'arriver à une certaine periode de calme. Mais je pense que ce n'est pas necessaire pour un esprit discipliné de suivre le cours de cette idée.

Le deuxième approche est la desapprobation sociale combinée avec la vigilance sociale. Une fois l'haitien moyen se sentira à part entière dans sa communauté, elle ne sera plus dans une position de tolerance envers un voisin qui est un kidnappeur. Il sera prêt à le denoncer à la police judiciare, une fois suspect d'une activité louche dans son voisinage. Cet haitien ne le fera seulement quand il sentira une certaine mesure de justice appliquée à ceux qui sont coupables. Aussi, il le fera seulement quand il est convaincu que son effort ne sera pas en vain. Tout ceci, encore, demandera du temps, que même une administration entière, comme celle de Préval, n'en aura pas suffisamment pour pouvoir arreter cette pratique de kidnapping. Ce qui veut dire qu'une deuxième administration devra continuer les oeuvres d'un prédécesseur, historiquement affaire très difficile en Haiti.

Ce qui nous retourne à la declaration hier de notre politicien en haut qui continue de s'etonner que le nouveau gouvernement n'ait pas encore resolu le problème de kidnapping. En partie, la raison de cette impatience - bon Dieu bon - était la croyance dans la bienveillance des kidnappeurs. En d'autres termes, tout le monde esperait que les kidnappeurs allaient suspendre leurs activités, aussitôt un gouvernement democratique aurait été etabli. La naiveté de cette perception était que les gens n'avaient aucune idee pourquoi le kidnapping faisait rage. Moi aussi, je n'en ai encore aucune idee. Mais, je ne vois rien qui s'est passé recemment pour me convaincre qu'il allait decourager quelqu'un qui etait prêt à violer la loi et les droits humains d'autrui, sans souci de leurs consequences negatives, de le suspendre. Ce genre de choses ne se produisent pas sans qu'il y ait une force fondamentale en-dessous. Quand à notre politicien, on se demande quel genre de solutions il peut apporter à un problème qui semble lui avoir echappé dans toute sa profondeur.

J-M. [/quote]


Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:31 pm

Tidodo_

Post by Tidodo_ » Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:05 am

Here is a reply I posted to it afterwards:

[quote]Dans sa declaration aux kidnappeurs, "le dialogue par le DDN ou la mort," President Preval semble avoir été forçé la main par l'opposition. Le danger pour lui dans le "tough talk" est sa crédibilité. On ne peut pas blamer le president pour ne pas vouloir paraitre comme un "paper tiger," un tigre en papier pour prêter le fameux proverbe chinois. Parler dur avec les kidnappeurs est une chose. "Backing up the talk" [pouvoir faire respecter sa parole] est une autre chose. Comme j'ai essayé de plaider en haut, le gouvernement haitien n'a pas la capacite d'empêcher le kidnapping maintenant. Haiti est un état dans la banqueroute. Je suppose si le gouvernement de Latortue pouvait, il aurait empêché le kidnapping. Le problême pour un gouvernement haitien, quel qu'il soit, est qu'il n'a pas les moyens de combattre la criminalité efficacement à court terme. Avec de la plannification ça viendra. Il faudra du temps. La vraie mesure de l'efficacité d'un gouvernement haitien dans ce domaine est l'évaluation des mesures prises pour projeter si elles parviendront à une solution à moyen ou long terme. Pour le moment, Preval semble patauger dans la première crise politique de sa deuxième presidence.

J-M.[/quote]


Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 5:17 am

Tidodo_

Post by Tidodo_ » Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:12 am

Here is my last post on the post on the subject, on August 16th, before I had to conclude it is a matter of little interest on the forum.

[quote]En ecoutant l'émission "Carrefour" de Radio AM 1020 de Miami, animée par Alex St Surin à 3:00 p.m. hier, les propos de Stanley Lucas ont attiré mon attention. Il était l'invité d'honneur de l'emission. Etant donné que c'était publique, je suppose que je peux reproduire et commenter ici sur ce qu'il a dit. Je ne peux pas reporter mots par mots ce qu'il a dit, mais je vais faire un effort pour reproduire les idées qu'il a émises le plus exactement que possible. Tout ce qui est dit en bas représente son opinion ET NON LA MIENNE

CRIMES EN HAITI

Il pense que le problème de crime en Haiti peut se resoudre en un mois. Ce qui manque c'est la volonté d'une administration pour le faire.

Les moyens pour resoudre le problème de criminalité sont faciles. Il suffit d'identifier les criminels. D'ailleurs tout le monde en Haiti connait qui sont les criminels et leur adresse, où ils vivent, à San-Fil, Martissant, etc. Là où il est à Washington, il sait qui a tué Jacques Roche. Son nom est Amaral (j'espère que j'ai retenu et écrit le nom qu'il a donné correctement).

Le concept de negotiation avec les criminels est mauvais et inefficace. La seule solution est la force.

L'ARMEE

Le problème de l'armée est un faux problème. La raison est que Haiti n'a pas les fonds necessaires dans son budget pour supporter une armée. D'ailleurs, après plus de 15 ans, depuis leur dissolution, les anciens de l'armée sont trop vieux maintenant et en aucune condition physique et tactique pour constituer une force efficace.

REPONSE à Question sur Ministères non-necessaires et inutiles: Feminine, Diaspora et Parlement

La question était s'il pense il serait moeux[sic] d'utiliser leur budget pour financer l'armée? Ministère de L'Agriculture a 280 agronomes dont ils n'en n'ont pas besoin et coutent le budget beaucoup d'argent. Une soixantaine suffiront. Le reste devra être donné aux magistrats des régions qui peuvent mieux les utiliser en même temps et alleger le budget du gouvernement national. La même chose pour le Ministère des Travaux Publics. La majorite des 60 ingenieurs qu'il utilise pourrait aussi être alloué aux magistrats des régions qui en ont un plus grand besoin.

Il a répété la même chose dite en haut, que la question de l'armée est un faux problème et que les anciens militaires ne sont plus en condition physiques pour répliquer ce que l'armée était avant.

Evaluation du Gouvernement de Preval jusqu'à Présent

Il utilise le terme américain qu'il est dans une période de "lune de miel." Cependant, on devra periodiquement - 3 mois, 6 mois, 1 an, 2 ans, 3 ans, 5 ans - voir si les situations du kidnapping, manque d'eau, electricité, routes, l'Hopital Général sont résolues. [Je pense ce dernier commentaire etait resonable[sic], excepté que pour la criminalité, ça se contredit avec sa declaration qu'elle peut être résolue dans un mois].

Je me demande ce que les autres membres du forum pensent de ses declarations!

J-M[/quote]


Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:37 am

Tidodo_

Post by Tidodo_ » Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:30 am

Fast-forward to today.

There is no "quick fix" in Haiti! It is funny that two weeks ago, Stanley Lucas was again on the Haitian Radio program in Miami, "Carrefour" repeating the same ill-advised ideas, or propaganda, depending on which side of the political spectrum you are on. While no one can be so much further away than the reality in Haiti as I am, his "quick-fix" solutions seem out of touch with the reality of Haiti. The social fabric - the base of any organized country - has been destroyed in Haiti. You need to rebuild it first before you can accomplish anything durable.

Yesterday, on Haitian radios in Miami again, I heard that the two legislative chambers called the executive government for a meeting next week to threaten them with firing for the insecurity situation. In other words, the boss is calling the subordinates for not doing his work and threatening to cut them off. What is missing in that picture, at least to me in case I am not well informed, is what the legislative body has done since they were elected to reduce the insecurity situation in Haiti. The legislative body has a role to play by allocating resources to fight and discourage criminality, and strengthening the hands of the executive so that it can do its job. So far, all I heard was verbal posturing. I hope this not an omen of a do-nothing legislature. The last thing Haiti needs now is more people on the payroll who do nothing.

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Post by admin » Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:51 am

[quote]So far, all I heard was verbal posturing.So far, all I heard was verbal posturing.[/quote]
Well, isn't that always the case?

As to the lack of response to your previous posts... I just have a hunch that the language chosen to develop your observations or argumentation may have been a factor. French is the language of Haitian intellectuals. Haitian intellectuals do not find solace in Windows on Haiti. ... ... ... I don't know, man, that's just a hunch. I am not a member of the PQ or QP (province of Quebec) diaspora or that of France, Belgium, or other French-speaking country. While I have preserved my ability to write in French (and teach it occasionally), I have found that there is in Haiti and in the U.S. diaspora a socio-political component in the use of French: it is used either to exclude non-intellectuals or to embellish social services (church sermons, wedding speeches, courting and mating rituals, and at other times when it's advantageous to display self-importance and social class characteristics). After 35 years of living among the U.S. diaspora, I hardly speak French socially anymore [betraying perhaps my lack of class interest] but I have always been fond of French literature. The courting/mating rituals are truly yesteryear. But "les Frères de l'Instruction Chrétienne et mes professeurs de Littérature haitienne et de Littérature française" have instilled in me an undying love for well-written French, which translated later on, naturally, to well-written English and my not-so-secret passion for Haitian Creole to attain the same level of respect among my peers. Language is the weapon that I try to perfect to deliver the logical and mathematical concepts that my brain has been wired to communicate. I love to write, but only when it truly means something. The only way I gauge the value of what I write is by how people respond to it. When I am confronted by near-absolute silence (something that my correspondents on the Ann Pale Forum dish out on a regular basis), I tend to retreat because I hate the futility of words above all else (remember, language is supposed to be a weapon -- for better or worse). Therefore, I totally understand your frustration, Jean-Marie. But I have discovered a long time ago that when I write in English or in Kreyòl, I may (just "may") engage others in logical argumentation (the only kind that I value). When I have done so in French, people would react to the same ideas by saying "oh, mwen wè ou pa pèdi franse ou" (I see that you have not lost your French) and move on as though that was the only thing that mattered. Hence, my conclusion that the French language is a precious "bibelot" (curio) for the Haitian people, one that they will not divest (too much class interest) but one that is never an efficient vehicle for meaningful two-way communications in the Haitian context (unless one pleasures in "discourir pour ne rien dire").

That's my take on it anyway, but let's move on...

Michel Nau_

Post by Michel Nau_ » Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:30 pm

Stanley wrote: [quote]Gang members, thugs and drug dealers are still linked to state affairs. In fact, on Preval's trip to Washington in May, the White House barred access to two members of the Preval delegation who were known criminals.[/quote]
Tidodo a dit : [quote]Là où il (Stanley Lucas) est à Washington, il sait qui a tué Jacques Roche. Son nom est Amaral.[/quote]
TiDodo wrote: [quote]So far, all I heard was verbal posturing. So far, all I heard was verbal posturing.[/quote]
Do you still call this verbal posturing??
Mesye sa yo shita Washington ap fe networking pou konnin sak kap pase nan peyi a. e nou menm nap pedi tan ap poste e li propagand.
Fok nou konsantre nou sou bagay reel!!
Fok nou realistic e konsyan de sak kap pase nan peyi nou olye nal di pep la pou yo deguize an Dessalines pou yal batay avek MINUSTAH.
W toujou di KK je pa linet!!
Nou menm nou di propagand sa yo se KK bef ke w vle fe pep la manje pou bonbon siro.
Bullsh !t is not molasses cookie my brother!!
Jan Stanley di a, si Preval/Alexis vle yo kap fe insekirite a fini nan peyi dAyiti.
Mesye sa yo mare kod lonbrit yo e nan zanmitay avek yon group kriminel ki pran gouvenman Preval/Alexis a an otaj. Kom yo pa gen travay pou bayo, yo kite yo lage ko yo man zak kriminel pou fe la jan.

Preval pa gen redevans ave moun sa yo kap mache di ke se yo ki mete li kom presizan.
Li le pou Preval koupe kod lonbrit sa e lage moun sa yo, e dirije peyi a kom sa dwa et.

Jiskikote ke mesye sa yo ye nan Washington nan, ki jan ke yo fe konnin sak kap pase nan peyi a??
It seems that they are always one step a head of us.
Kontinye pedi tan di sa toujou.
Se sak fe ke trota ap toujou bare nou.

Michel

Tidodo_

Post by Tidodo_ » Fri Dec 01, 2006 2:26 pm

[quote]Do you still call this verbal posturing??
Mesye sa yo shita Washington ap fe networking pou konnin sak kap pase nan peyi a. e nou menm nap pedi tan ap poste e li propagand.
Fok nou konsantre nou sou bagay reel!!
Fok nou realistic e konsyan de sak kap pase nan peyi nou olye nal di pep la pou yo deguize an Dessalines pou yal batay avek MINUSTAH.
W toujou di KK je pa linet!!
Nou menm nou di propagand sa yo se KK bef ke w vle fe pep la manje pou bonbon siro.
Bullsh !t is not molasses cookie my brother!!
[/quote]

Michel,

First of all, the posturing I referred to was the one by the deputies and senators who have not, to my knowledge, enacted laws or funded programs to deal with the insecurity, since they were elected. Correct me if I am wrong, I thought that was their job.

[quote]Jan Stanley di a, si Preval/Alexis vle yo kap fe insekirite a fini nan peyi dAyiti.[/quote]

Michel, would you explain to me how anybody can stop kidnapping in one month in Haiti? And, please, I don't just need your word for it. I need facts, processes, available resources, proven experience, like you said above, REALITY, for instance:
1. how many law enforcement people will the country need to do that?
2. how much it will cost per person?
3. how many will come from the current roster?
4. how many is in the roster now that cannot do the job?
5. how many more will you need to add?
6. where did you train them already?
7. if not, where will they be trained and how long will it take?
8. Where will they come from? diaspora, lycees, colleges, other haitian government agencies, etc.
9. Will you hire foreign mercenaries? If so, where will they come from and at what cost?
10. how will you spread them geographically to cover all the areas who have criminals?
11. how many law enforcement officers will you have by number of the population?
12. what studies do you have to ensure of the adequacy of the number of law enforcement officers you are going to need to get the job done as efficiently as you indicated?
13. Will there be due process?
14. If not, how are you going to deal with the national and the international fallout from violating due process, if it is yours and Lucas' intent? Remember, I heard once that Latortue tried to do that and the US stopped him from using unlawful means.

I hope you have my drift and understand my line of questionning, and I have not addressed yet all the questions on how you locate the criminals? how do you arrest them? how long it will take to do that? Where do you find them? how many judges will you need? how many prisons? how many people you expect to arrest?................................... etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc....

Michel Nau_

Post by Michel Nau_ » Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:56 am

Jean Marie Florestal (TiDodo) wrote: [quote]First of all, the posturing I referred to was the one by the deputies and senators who have not, to my knowledge, enacted laws or funded programs to deal with the insecurity, since they were elected. Correct me if I am wrong, I thought that was their job.[/quote]
TiDodo, I contacted by email 2 lawmakers in Haiti regarding an immediate solution to the insecurity and kidnapping in Haiti.
The first one is a conservator, and he told me that everybody from all level of the Haitian society is affected by the insecurity and kidnapping. The holiday season is on the way and the economy of the country needs a jumper cable to start the Preval/Alexis government on track.
Spending their time traveling and looking for money abroad will not do it.

The insecurity and kidnapping is scaring everybody away.
No one is immune of it and is afraid to come to Haiti, regardless if it's vacation or business trip.
Kidnapping insurance cost is skyrocketing, and it's bad for business.
When I asked him that: You as a lawmaker, what are you going to do about it?
The decision is a Parliament decision he answered. We are a team, we work as a team and we take final decision as a team. If I am pushing for the amendment of the Constitution to call for capital punishment, I would like my peers to support me for this bill. If they pull away, and don't show any support, I may be a victim of kidnapping myself.

We need to pass this bill just for this purpose only, kidnapping, and murder and you probably will see the result with in a short period of time. Otherwise, we would need a lot of money to build prisons all over the country.
Create rehabilitation institutions with security guards, counseling, libraries, physical activities, cafeteria, and professional developments for these criminals who are going to spend 15 to 20 years in prison.

The government doesn't have the money to spend on criminals for 15 to 20 years of jail time.
The government needs to take care of its ordinary and standards citizens first.
The capital punishment would definitely scare the hell out of the kidnappers, and curve the level of criminality in this country.

I asked the same question to another lawmaker who answered me bluntly that: Insecurity and kidnapping is nothing but a byproduct of poverty, lack of healthcare, education, lodging, AND above all social injustice.
These BASIC necessities are more important than building prisons, and if they are not taking care of FIRST to put the society on a level field, the whole country manpower could be better of going to these beautiful prisons that your elite lawmaker suggested to do just to have a place to eat, and sleep.

If you look at the American society, more than half of African American males between the age of 18 to 35 are in jail not because they like to play basketball, lifting weights, and watching TV all day long, or don't want to pay child support or take responsibility as a citizen, but because in major part, the society fails them, rejects them, put them against the wall in a no way out but to defend themselves by committing crimes.
I am not 100% sure of what I just said. Other people may have different opinions.

When I asked them again: What you guys as lawmakers are going to do about it?
The first one still stick to his position. I am for the capital punishment just for kidnapping and senseless murders against innocent victims. I am ready to pay taxes or what ever it takes to build prison facilities to keep these criminals away from our wifes and children and our society for a long time.

The second one didn't back off either. I am for social justice, for education, healthcare, lodging, and investing the money in our people.

Now you have it. Even our lawmakers are divided about how to solve the insecurity/kidnapping problem that is killing our society.

What is your solution? May be a combination of both.
But how to put them together to satisfy the majority within a short period? Where, and how to invest in our society our little time and money that we have?

Kob la piti se vre e tout moun gen zafe pa yo pou regle, yo pa gen tan pou rand sevis a vagabon kriminel..min si nou mete tet ansamb, e ak ke poze san fe kole, ni joure lot, ni touye lot, nou tout kap jwen.
Mwen gen inpresyon ke yon pavle lashe ni fe konpromi pou lot e peyi a shita la ap soufri.

Gen anpil lot moun ki konprand ke govenman sevi ak sekirite.kidnapping nan kankou yon vann tiyo ke yo ouvri e femin li jan yo vle e le yo vle.
Eske se vre??

Akizasyon sa se yo ki pou repond li e pou eklere lespri tout moun sou zafe sa otreman shaj sa ap rete peze sou tet yo e kap kreye move konsekans pou yo pi devan!!

Michel

Tidodo_

Post by Tidodo_ » Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:54 am

[quote]Gen anpil lot moun ki konprand ke govenman sevi ak sekirite.kidnapping nan kankou yon vann tiyo ke yo ouvri e femin li jan yo vle e le yo vle.
Eske se vre??[/quote]

Michel,

You know better than that! Let's stick with proven facts! And, I am not trying to defend anybody. But, an educated person from Haiti told me with a straight face two months ago, that every time there is talk in Haiti about getting rid of MINUSTHA, the kidnappings increase. And that "the kidnappings are being perpetrated by MINUSTHA!" Without strong evidence to support it, I would imagine someone who is educated would be careful about such allegation. I can understand the frustration in Haiti about the kidnappings. But, we need to look inward if we want to attempt to solve this problem.

If the leaders of Haiti and those, who pretend to be helping it, want to solve its problems, they need to be serious. Rumors-based solutions are no solutions at all! For, they may be solutions to the wrong problems. But, I certainly appreciate your taking time to go find out what the legislators are trying to do, before you posted your reply. It does suggest that at least, some are attempting to approach the problems systematically, instead of emotionally. Let's hope they are not alone.

One thing you must have realized by now, serious thinking will need to be done to solve the kidnapping problem. The people in power, whether they are in the executive or the legislative branch, will need to come with new ideas and be patient with their implementation. For, there are no easy solutions to the problems in Haiti.

DPean

Post by DPean » Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:26 pm

I am sorry to say. The problem of the collapse of social order in Haiti that brought us the kidnapping problem started with the abolishment of the the old Haitian army. Yes, it was a corrupt army. Yes, it was a bad army. But its removal created a bigger problem than it solved. It created a vacuum. The new police was too weak. There was no force strong enough to protect the state. That situation allowed certain bad elements in Haitian society to consolidate themselves, to multiply themselves, to amass enough weapons.
The only way to face that problem is to increase dramatically the effective of the police force, to improve their training and to provide them with better weapons. This is a long term process.
On the other side, any serious government would keep an eye on any private citizen, with no obvious signs of income, who suddenly is building a mansion or buying expensive cars.

Tidodo_

Post by Tidodo_ » Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:20 pm

[quote]I am sorry to say. The problem of the collapse of social order in Haiti that brought us the kidnapping problem started with the abolishment of the the old Haitian army...But its removal created a bigger problem than it solved[/quote]

Doc,

I disagree with you that the collapse of the social order started with the abolishment of the army. While I cannot speak for periods before my birth, I can remember during the Duvalier regime that "tonton macoutes" routinely confiscated the assets of the upper echelons of society, entered their houses at night for the victims never to be seen again. It is widely reported and believed that Tibobo and Boss Pent routinely killed people for personal offenses as minor as scratching their cars without being prosecuted. How different is that from kidnapping people without fear of being prosecuted? The only difference is that the perpetrators are no longer members of a uniformed group. Anonymous criminals have been substitued for members of the army or the "tonton macoutes."

It is debatable whether having a human rights-violating and democracy-destroying army is a bigger problem than the social order collapse that brought us the kidnapping you mentioned. As a doctor - and I hope my memory serves me right on your profession - you are certainly very familiar with treatment of an illness that includes complications. And I surmise you would agree with me that doctors would not deny attempting any treatment just because of fear of complications. Usually, when the complications arise, they are dealt with. Haiti, not only failed to plan for possible complications, it also failed to deal with them as they emerged, leading to what we have today.

[quote]The only way to face that problem is to increase dramatically the effective of the police force, to improve their training and to provide them with better weapons.[/quote]

While better enforcement of the laws is clearly needed, as I mentioned in my previous posts above that is not the only solution to the problem. Whether it was terrorism by macoutes/army or by today criminals, poverty, past abuses by people with authority and perceived unfairness in wealth distribution must have a lot to do with it, as well. That makes better law enforcement NOT the only way to face that problem.

The larger problem in Haiti is a history of abuse of power, whether that power is in the hands of the elite (political or economical) or those of the less privileged. Based on the USA experience, we know that power in anybody's hands must be controlled. Haitian history has almost no example of the State being able to control the authority of those in positions of power.

Tidodo_

Post by Tidodo_ » Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:43 pm

[quote]Because, in fact, all those involved in the crisis are quite capable of thinking rational solutions to deal with the problem of kidnappings but there are conflicts of interests at stake here. Including, the interest of those who want to justify the presence of MINUSTAH in the country. [/quote]

Jaf,

Your statement suggests that the kidnappings are not random and are controlled by an organized group. I doubt it, and that's why I think it has become out of control. Based on observations of the pattern of kidnappings, which is not a scientific evaluation, it seems to me it has become the fastest growing source of wealth in Haiti. And as such, it would not be limited to an organized group only. Also, it is hard to see which group in Haiti uses the kidnappings to justify the presence of MINUSTAH. Right now, from what I understand, it is indiscriminate, which suggests more the random nature I mentioned above than the MINUSTAH's presence-lovers doing. I admit that I may be wrong to doubt it, but stronger evidence must emerge.

[quote]It makes no sense for the kidnapping phenomenon to be gaining strength in Haiti, precisely as the country has over 9000 well equipped foreign troops dispatched there precisely to bring stability .... unless, the forces of the U.N. have an objective that works in synergy with that of the directors of the kidnapping industry.[/quote]

I certainly appreciated the report you quoted and your analysis of it. There is more that could be done to deal with that problem that is not done. But, if you analyze what is happening in Iraq, you will notice that having bigger forces does not necessarily mean having control. For that reason, I will reserve judgment on MINUSTAH's total ability to deal effectively with the kidnappings problem.

[quote]When one looks at the fact that all the money promised to the Preval government have not materialized.... when one looks at the number of deportees that keep increasing.....one is inevitably led to the conclusion that a decision has been made in high places that spending the $500 million for the U.N. mission is a better strategy than helping the Preval government run Haiti. So, there is a conflict of interest there. [/quote]

They made similar promises to President Aristide after the US returned him. That financial help never came. Like you usually implied, Haitians have to look for solutions in Haiti, and not elsewhere because only them have a real stake in what is happening in Haiti. It seems to me that President Preval understood that, which explained the carefully chosen foreign travel since he was elected. With the meager resources we have, we have to be innovative and patient about results. Foreigners will join us only when we are making progress and have no choice but to follow us. President Preval has to be careful as to how he deals with the kidnapping problem. Otherwise, it may torpedo his presidency.

DPean

Post by DPean » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:54 pm

[quote]I disagree with you that the collapse of the social order started with the abolishment of the army. While I cannot speak for periods before my birth, I can remember during the Duvalier regime that "tonton macoutes" routinely confiscated the assets of the upper echelons of society, entered their houses at night for the victims never to be seen again. It is widely reported and believed that Tibobo and Boss Pent routinely killed people for personal offenses as minor as scratching their cars without being prosecuted. How different is that from kidnapping people without fear of being prosecuted? The only difference is that the perpetrators are no longer members of a uniformed group. Anonymous criminals have been substitued for members of the army or the "tonton macoutes."[/quote]
Nobody has been able to bring a formula to bring health back to the critically ill patient, Haiti. When we do not like a formula, we, Haitians, discard the whole thing to bring something new and untested. We never thought that in the old formula, there may have been some very good ingredients that, once released, may become lethal. Maybe, the old formula needed to be diluted a little bit, while the new formula needed much more testing in the laboratory.
The old army, when it was abolished, was not the equivalent to the Tibobo and Boss Pent era. It should have been reformed, the old dinosaurs would gradually retire, and the really bad ones (probably a minority) fired. New people would be brought in. Some kind of stability and some sanity would have been maintained.
In the old time, while we were not in paradise, at least we knew who the enemies were. Now, the enemy is invisible. He can hit anytime and anywhere. The Haitian diaspora visits the homeland, less and less. Potential investors evaporate. The kidnapping phenomena, if not put under control, will destroy the country.

Tidodo_

Post by Tidodo_ » Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:51 pm

[quote]Nobody has been able to bring a formula to bring health back to the critically ill patient, Haiti. When we do not like a formula, we, Haitians, discard the whole thing to bring something new and untested. We never thought that in the old formula, there may have been some very good ingredients that, once released, may become lethal. Maybe, the old formula needed to be diluted a little bit, while the new formula needed much more testing in the laboratory.[/quote]

I do agree with you on that observation. And in the same line of thought, I might even add that historically, there there has not been continuity from one administration to the other, underscoring your point that "we are always reinventing the wheel." However, it is arguable that the social collapse may have started with the Duvalier regime or even before.

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Post by admin » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:58 pm

[quote]
RESTEZ CHEZ VOUS LE LUNDI 11 DECEMBRE PROCHAIN ET FAITES CIRCULER LE MESSAGE

Mercredi 29 novembre 2006, 5 :07 pm, Canapé Vert : deux parents ont été chercher leurs enfants à une garderie. Dans leurs yeux et par leurs gestes on entrevoit la peur. En effet, à peine sortis de la barrière, ils regardent dans toutes les directions afin de se rassurer que la voie soit libre, libre de kidnappeurs.

Les enfants, eux aussi stressés, ont vite monté dans leur voiture respective et sans perdre une seconde les deux conducteurs ont vidé les lieux. Cette scène m'a pincé le cœur, j'ai eu pitié d'eux quoique j'aie peur, moi aussi.

Un peu plus tôt, 4:55 pm, une étudiante en secrétariat s'est échappée de justesse d'un rapt à Christ-Roi. Cela explique pourquoi 2 d'entre elles couraient à la sortie de l'établissement.

La peur s'installe maintenant dans presque toutes les familles de la capitale sauf, bien sure, celles des kidnappeurs. Chacun d'entre nous a au moins une histoire de gens enlevés à raconter. Certaines fois il s'agit de l'histoire de notre propre enlèvement.

Certaines font la une des journaux. Nous n'allons pas oublier aussi rapidement celle de Farah Kerbie ou celle du petit garçon de 6 ans du collège Saint Jean l'Evangéliste. Hier ce fut le tour d'un personnage public d'un collègue, un condisciple, un ami, un proche parent.

Aujourd'hui ou demain, ce sera peut-être votre tour. C'est impossible de vivre ainsi dans son propre pays. On dit : « on n'est jamais chez soi que chez soi ». La question est de savoir maintenant : Est-ce que nous sommes chez nous ?

Il semble qu'il nous reste 2 options:

1) Laisser le pays avec notre famille pour une destination parfois inconnue mais à coup sûr, incertaine.

2) Rester dans le pays à condition de faire quelque chose.

On ne peut plus rester les bras croisés, les pieds liés et la gueule fermée à regarder gentiment les gangs nous enlever et nous demander de payer une somme que nous ne disposons même pas. Beaucoup d'entre nous ont vu partir en fumée toute l'économie de 5, 10, 20 ou 30 ans de travail. Certains ont emprunté de l'argent à intérêt pour payer la rançon demandée.

La société haitienne est zombifiée. Nous sommes tous des zombies. Il nous faut manger du sel. Ce n'est pas possible de rester ainsi. Nous femen twou nen nou pou nou bwe tout vye dlo santi yap ban nou bwe. Li le pou nou fini ak pwoveb « chak koukouy klere pou je w ». Se nou tout kap soufri, se nou tout ki bouke, se nou tout ki pou mete ansanm pou bagay yo chanje.

Le président reste muet.

Le premier ministre a fait le bilan de son gouvernement sur la «sécurité» tandis que les bandits en font autant. De plus, ces derniers peuvent se féliciter du fait que leur bilan est plus satisfaisant que celui du gouvernement.

La MINUSTHA de son côté ne fait rien

Nos leaders politiques ne parlent plus. On croirait qu'ils sont tous complices.

Le pire, c'est que la police détient un fichier contenant les photos des bandits, leurs noms et adresses. Ils attendent «peut être» une décision du gouvernement. Sous la pression d'ambassades étrangères, la police mette la main sur des bandits qui avaient enlevé des citoyens de leur pays. Quant il s'agit d'haitiens, ils se foutent de nos gueules.

Les bandits ont actuellement le contrôle de la ville. Ils font ce qu'ils veulent, quand ils veulent et à la manière dont ils veulent. Ils tuent malgré le versement de rançon

Actuellement ils pénètrent jusqu'au bureau des gens pour les enlever. Wa di kiyès ki gen kontwol vil lan tout bon.

Aujourd'hui, nous ne pouvons plus continuer à vivre sur ce territoire comme si tout allait bien, nous devons faire quelque chose. Nous n'avons plus besoin de leader politique kap vin ranse, vin blabla. Nous devons désormais décider de notre sort. Fok nou fe yon bagay. Fok nou sispann viv kon zonbi.

Il faut forcer les responsables à prendre la décision qu'il faut, à savoir arrêter les bandits. Nou pa vle Aleksi ap vin pale n de negosyasyon, pandan nou menm nap negosye ap kidnape pou yo lage fanmi nou. Se nomal pou pran tout tan yo pou yo lez ko yo paske se nan machin blende yap kouri epi yo gen menm 15 ajan sekirite deye yo. De plus leurs enfants sont Amérique du nord ou en Europe. Ki te mele dada yo.

Nous avons besoin de réunir nos pensées, nos forces, nos actions pou nou di nou pa kapab anko. Nous n'avons point besoin que le gouvernement s'en aille. Depi 1986 nap fe sa, peyi a pa janm fe avan, gouvenman ale pa janm regle anyen pou peyi a, se retire vagabon mete vagabon. Se nou menm sitwayen ki pou mete fos nou ansanm fe presyon sou responsab yo pou yo fe travay yo.

Dayè se lajan nou ki peye yo. Ce mouvement ne doit pas être politique. Il doit être un mouvement de tout citoyen concerné de son propre sort et du sort et du pays. Employés, travailleurs libres, patrons, écoliers, étudiants, professeurs, commerçants, avocats, médecins, etc. Faites quelque chose.

NOUS ALLONS TOUS RESTER CHEZ NOUS LE LUNDI 11 DECEMBRE 2006 pour protester contre l'inaction du gouvernement. On va commencer ainsi. On verra plus loin comment intensifier nos actions. N'oubliez surtout pas vos exploits du passé Nou se yon pèp ki konn domi se vre. Men le nou reveye, nou reveye pou tout bon.

RESTEZ CHEZ VOUS LE LUNDI 11 DECEMBRE PROCHAIN ET FAITES CIRCULER LE MESSAGE.
[/quote]

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Le kidnapping comme nouvelle forme de déstabilisation

Post by admin » Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:52 am

Le kidnapping comme nouvelle forme de déstabilisation


ANALYSE

PORT-AU-PRINCE, 17 Décembre - Effet psychologique certain. La vague actuelle de kidnappings a réussi à casser les reins, les épaules, tous les réflexes les plus naturels aux habitants de la capitale haitienne. Les gens ne sont pas seulement sur le qui-vive, ils n'ont pas seulement peur. Mais c'est tout leur psychisme qui est atteint. Une sorte de zombification. Est-ce un hasard ou serait-ce le but recherché ?

Oui, on peut dire déstabilisation dès que cela signifie mettre les gens la tête en bas, jeter le trouble dans leur esprit et leur comportement.

Déstabilisation de fait. Mais n'est-ce pas toujours la même chose, qu'il y ait un objectif caché ou pas, qu'il y ait une main derrière ou non ! En tout cas, l'effet est atteint. Reçu 5 sur 5.

Aussi au fil des événements, on en vient à se poser des questions plus nuancées, plus osées. Pourquoi enlever plutôt des enfants ? Qui peut avoir techniquement les moyens pour gérer tant de kidnappings à la fois ? Cela ne nécessite-t-il pas une importante organisation impliquant des renseignements précis, une logistique tout à la fois souple et efficace, un système de sécurité sans faille, des équipes rompues aux négociations, administration de l'hébergement et de l'entretien des pensionnaires, à plus forte raison des enfants en bas âge. Et tout cela fonctionnant comme les aiguilles d'une montre. Car la moindre erreur peut être fatale aux criminels ou à leurs victimes.

Est-ce que cela peut se trouver facilement en Haiti ? Une stratégie aussi impeccable puisque les kidnappeurs ne se font pas attraper, sauf dans de rares cas. On a l'habitude de penser que c'est au-dessus de nos moyens et expérience...

Si les haitiens étaient aussi capables de talent organisationnel, Haiti ne serait pas en cet état. N'est-ce pas.

Donc première interrogation !



Est-ce que les kidnappeurs gagnent réellement au change ? ...

Secundo, pourquoi décider soudain de kidnapper plutôt des enfants ?

Parce que c'est le point faible des parents, pardi. Ces derniers seront plus faciles sur la détente, à desserrer les cordons de leur bourse.

Mais pourquoi ne l'avoir pas pensé plus tôt. Jusqu'à présent, on avait surtout enlevé des hommes ou femmes d'affaires, haitiens et étrangers, des cadres professionnels, des anciens ministres...

Or il est probable que ceux-ci sont financièrement plus capables de verser la rançon que les parents de ces enfants choisis pour la plupart au hasard.

Aujourd'hui on entend parler de plus en plus de règlement en gourdes quand le plus petit cas se soldait jusqu'ici en plusieurs dizaines ou centaines de milliers de dollars américains.

Est-ce que les kidnappeurs gagnent réellement au change ? On est forcé de se le demander.

C'est la première fois aussi que les cibles sont choisies sur une base systématique. Rien que des écoliers et enfants en bas âge. Alors que le kidnappeur prenait jusqu'ici son pain là où cela faisait mieux son affaire. Son seul critère était la rentabilité.

Il y a donc un parti pris évident de créer d'abord un effet psychologique. De choquer. De frapper un grand coup. De troubler tout l'ensemble de la communauté (ainsi que la diaspora qui ne mettra pas les pieds pour les fêtes de fin d'année). Autrement dit de déstabiliser.

Mais si cela (du moins comme on le présume) ne doit pas rapporter beaucoup plus qu'avant aux kidnappeurs, pourquoi alors se donnent-ils tant de mal ?



Il faut toute une logistique...

Troisième interrogation : à partir du moment où il y a enlèvement de tout un bus scolaire, c'est une autre affaire. On n'est plus au stade du petit voyou (" chimère " ou pas) qui tente un coup en solo, ni du jeune homme voulant faire chanter les parents de son ex-petite amie...

C'est le kidnapping à l'échelle d'une industrie. De la grande organisation, pourvue de toute une logistique (investissements en infrastructures pour l'hébergement et l'entretien des victimes, services de renseignements et de sécurité bien au point, techniques de négociations et de manipulation psychologique, bonne connaissance de la psychologie des enfants etc)...

Et tout cela supposément par des experts puisque les coupables se font rarement attraper. Les auteurs du détournement du bus scolaire (7 enfants dans une Trooper de couleur rouge) courent toujours après le relâchement contre rançon de leurs otages deux jours plus tard.

Mais le même jour on apprenait qu'un autre nombre presque égal d'écoliers avait été enlevé.

Quatrième interrogation : le centre d'opérations s'est déplacé. Comme s'ils n'avaient plus autant accès aux quartiers populaires de la capitale, les kidnappeurs (dont les noms aussi sont nouveaux, dont un " Nan Mitan " opérant dans la zone de Croix-des-Bouquets) doivent déplacer aujourd'hui leurs victimes jusque très loin. Un enfant enlevé à Diquini (Carrefour), banlieue sud de la capitale, est libéré par la police à Saint Marc. Le petit Roobentz Francillon est retrouvé mort par strangulation jusqu'au Cap-Haitien.



Pas un mot non plus des parents !...

Autre signe particulier : les parents ne se manifestent point. Aucune déclaration à la presse, le no comment est absolu.

Sont-ils terrorisés ?

Possible. Quand on joint autant d'horreur à pareille audace (rappelons que deux victimes ont été exécutées, dont un enfant de 6 ans), la population se retrouve facilement paralysée.

Mais comment contrôler si toutes les informations rapportées par les médias de la capitale sont authentiques. Car il y a toujours à craindre l'effet d'imitation. La psychose se reproduit d'elle-même.

Alors pourquoi des enfants ?

Parce que les auteurs de kidnapping sont les gens les plus méchants de la terre et qu'ils savent que c'est à travers ces petits êtres qu'ils peuvent nous faire le plus de mal.

Mais c'est là un jugement moral qui en principe n'a rien à voir avec une activité aussi cynique.

Ou alors parce qu'il est plus facile d'enlever un enfant sans défense. Pas toujours, le père de la petite qui a été enlevée devant l'école des sœurs du Sacré Cœur s'est battu. Il a reçu plusieurs balles, mais il n'est pas mort.

Non, le kidnapping systématique d'enfants est une autre affaire que celui d'adultes. Il n'apporte que plus d'embêtements et pas forcément plus d'argent.

D'autre part, s'il soulève une plus forte émotion dans le public, dans un second temps il peut également inciter une plus grande collaboration de la population dans la chasse à l'homme contre les criminels.

Alors les kidnappings d'enfant ont-ils un objectif autre ? Un but caché.

Difficile de ne pas le supposer.



Haiti en Marche, 17 Décembre 2006

Michel Nau_

Post by Michel Nau_ » Wed Dec 20, 2006 2:19 pm

[quote]Le kidnapping systématique d'enfants est une autre affaire que celui d'adultes. Il n'apporte que plus d'embêtements et pas forcément plus d'argent. Alors les kidnappings d'enfant ont-ils un objectif autre ? Un but caché. [/quote] Pitit se nan zantray manman e papa ke sa soti.
Map bay ninpot kisa, menm pouvwa ekonomik e politik pou mwen sove pitit mwen.
Min yon jou ap rive kote ke popilasyon ap di se ase e yap fe jistis yo men sou kidnape sa yo ki kap kouri sove vinn lage ko yo bay la polis pito ke yo mouri nan min pep la.
[quote]Alors pourquoi des enfants ? [/quote]Premyeman: Timoun pi fasil pou pran, yo pap batay ni chache sove, yo pe, e ap kriye, je yo femin yo pap kap we kidnape yo byen.
Deziemman : Ti moun piti pa al nan resepsyon, ni al nan fet granmoun, kidonk yo pap kap rekomet ni lonje dwet sou kidnape yo menm si yo chita nan bel salon ap manje e bay blag nan mitan moun serye.
Twaziemman : Paren pli sansib pou yon ti moun yap jwen ranson lajan kan menm. [quote]Parce que les auteurs de kidnapping sont les gens les plus méchants de la terre et qu'ils savent que c'est à travers ces petits êtres qu'ils peuvent nous faire le plus de mal.[/quote]
Gen w neg ki tap di ke : analfabet pa bet ! Analfabet pa bet !!

Nou we kounyen la ke analfabet se bet tout bon vre.
Yo fe tout lekol femin e yo pran peyi a pou yo.
Yap kontinye gaye la perez nan ke tout fanmi e kontinye fe anpil presyon sou govenman Preval/Alexis a pou yo sa fe Aristide tounin nan peyi a.

Timoun lekol se aveni peyi a, kidnape se analfa[bet mechan]

Michel

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Post by admin » Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:12 pm

[quote]Kidnape ti moun lekol montre kle ke analfabet se bet tout bon vre...

Nou we kounyen la ke analfabet se bet tout bon vre.
Yo fe tout lekol femin e yo pran peyi a pou yo. [/quote]
1) Michel, ki enfòmasyon ou genyen sou kidnapè yo ki pèmèt ou di se analfabèt yo ye?

2) Kouman ou jwenn enfòmasyon sa?

3) Ak ki otorite ou pataje enfòmasyon sa?

Mwen etone dèske ou anonse karebare ke kidnapè yo se analfabèt yo ye.

Yon analfabèt se yon iletre, yon moun ki pa konn ni li ni ekri. Lò yon moun di "Analfabèt pa bèt", mwen te toujou panse ke se yon verite paske si yon moun pa konn ni li ni ekri, l'ap jennen nan anpil bagay li ta vle fè, men sa pa vle di li pa gen lespri pou sa. Mwen te toujou kwè ke si yon moun di ke "analfabèt se bèt", sa demontre kay moun sa yon kokennchenn prejije sosyal. Sa vle di ke moun sa konsidere tout konpatriyòt li yo, ki pa te janm gen opòtinite li e ekri, tankou moun sòt, sètadi moun ki pa menm gen yon entelijans natirèl. Natirèlman, gen yon pakèt kontradiksyon nan fason de panse sa, paske gouvènman Fidel Castro a pa egzanp demontre klèman kouman yon pèp ki te an grann pati iletre kapab rapidman non sèlman aprann li e ekri men vini youn nan pèp ki pi edike tou nan tout Lamerik la. Alò de ki prevyen???

Bon, mwen byen konprann tou ke nan mesaj ou la, ou jwe sou konotasyon "bèt" la kòm "bèt mechan". Bon, mwen ta pi vit konprann si ou te ekri: "kidnapè se bèt mechan", men ou pito ekri "Timoun lekol se aveni peyi a, kidnape se analfa[bet mechan]". Kidonk ou pèsiste nan asosye "analfabèt" ak "kidnapè", oswa "kidnapè" ak analfabèt".

Michel, amwenske se mwenmenm ki pa konprann sans mo "analfabèt" la, sa ou ekri la se manifestasyon yon espri sinik san parèy.

Se nan pwen sa ou ye, Michel?

Michel Nau_

Post by Michel Nau_ » Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:59 pm

Guy ekri : [quote]Mwen etone dèske ou anonse karebare ke kidnapè yo se analfabèt yo ye. Mwen te toujou kwè ke si yon moun di ke "analfabèt se bèt", sa demontre kay moun sa yon kokennchenn prejije sosyal. men ou pito ekri "Timoun lekol se aveni peyi a, kidnape se analfa[bet mechan]". Kidonk ou pèsiste nan asosye "analfabèt" ak "kidnapè", oswa "kidnapè" ak analfabèt".Michel, amwenske se mwenmenm ki pa konprann sans mo "analfabèt" la, sa ou ekri la se manifestasyon yon espri sinik san parèy. Se nan pwen sa ou ye, Michel?[/quote] Guy, w pa menm fe yon ti rale vini sou zafe timoun piti lekol ke yap kidnape, w kouri rale ko w sou sije a pou fe yon atak pesonel sou mwen pou di ke mwen gen prejije sosyal, ke mwen sinik.
W pa menm kondane zak banditism sa yo ke yap fe sou timoun lekol.
Se pa sou polisyen, ni bizisman anko non.
Sou timoun lekol.
Sa sè yon lachtè, se profitè, se abi, se fe kokin. Shwazi ti moun kom bouklyè.
Itilize timoun pou ranson politik.
Ki opinion w sou sa ??? Di nou.

W pito pedi tan w sou yon konotasyon ke mwen fe avek mo analfa bèt la pou akizem de prejije sosyal.
Mwen pa fouti pemet menm mem si mwen ta vle gen prejije sosyal sou zafe moun kipa komm li ni ekri paske travay mwen nan milieu academik e gran papa sou bo manman mwen ki pat kom li ni ekri.
Kidonk mwen tap an kontradiksyon ak tet mwen.
Ki opinion w Guy sou zafe kidnaping ti moun lekol yo?
Eske w kap kondane zak sa yo piblikman.

Jaf di ke kidnapping nan se yon zak politik ke li ye sou govenman Preval/Alexis la.
Pou kisa w pa mande li ki yes ki soufflé li infomasyon sa yo?
Kisa ke li konnin ke nou pa konnin ??
Pou kisa ke se le sezon fet yo ke vaq posting sou epoq Aristide negativ ki finn pase sa yo ap reparet sou forum nan anko??
Jaf di ke majorite pitit diaspora yo se oubyen krimimel ou byen house negroes ke yo tounin.
Pou kisa ke w e res manb Ann Pale yo pa kondane deklarasyon prejije rasis e extremis sa yo.

E nou menm moun serye nan diaspora kap travay di pou eleve pitit nou e bayo yon edikasyon pou demin pou yo pa tounin volo e kriminel nan ki kategori ke Jaf mete nou e pitit nou yo????
Pou kisa w pa kondane e rejete piblikman sa li di yo??
Pou kisa ke w pito rete silans san fe bouwi?
Di nou sa w konnin ke nou menm nou pa konnin?

Fok w kondame deklarasyon fantesist sa yo ki pap itil pep la anyen min selman kreye división.
Se división ke mesye sa yo ap kreyè.
Atitid extremis mesye sa yo pa osi diferan ke GW Bush se oubyen ke w avek mwen ou byen w kont mwen.
Extremis dwat ak goch kreye division.
Mwen toujou chashe mwayen rete nan mitan pou rale pep la[lelite kou klas defavorize yo] vinn rankontre nan mitan.

Nou fatige avek atak pesonel.
Fe yon ti rale souzafe kidnaping ti moun lekol gwo sezon fet yo.
Fe'm tande vwa nou!!
Nou te met pale!!
Di sa nou panse, Peyi a se pou nou tout li ye !!
li pa pou lot moun selman kap di ke se yo pep la chwazi pou defand intere li, lot moun pa gen dwa defan pep la !!
Ala de traka papa!!

Michel

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Post by admin » Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:00 pm

Michel, w'a di ou pa li anyen nan sa mwen ekri nan liy konvèsasyon sa.

W'a di ou bliye mwen kòmanse li.

W'a di ou bliye tout sa Windows on Haiti reprezante pandan 8 lane ki pase yo.

Men ou pa bliye non. Kounyè a, ou rantre nan kòken nètalkole.

Michel, mwen pa kwè gen yon tras dout nan tèt okenn moun ki abitye li sa mwen ekri ke mwen kondane TOUT KIDNAPPING and jeneral e an patikilye.

Ou te menm deklare ke se mwen ki te vle touye kidnapè yo, alòske oumenm ou te toujis vle "show them the punishment". Kounyè a, se mwen ki pou parèt ak yon deklarasyon espesyal pou mwen kondane kidnapè timoun lekòl yo, paske si mwen pa fè sa, moun pa kab konnen pozisyon mwen sou zafè kidnapping timoun lekòl, pa vre?

Tout sa, se pou yon grenn rezon, Michel. Ou fè yon deklarasyon tèt anba (kidnapè yo se analfabèt yo ye), epi lò mwen souliyen sa, ou pa kapab defann pozisyon w lan. Kidonk ou pito fè dilatwa. Nan tout sa ou di anlè a, ou toujou pa esplike pou ki sa ou jije ke kidnapè yo se analfabèt yo ye.

Paske, ou byen konnen, Michel, ke tout moun ta renmen konnen kiyès kidnapè yo ye tout bon vre. Ke se sezon fèt, ke se pa sezon fèt, fòk ou envestige, fòk ou idantifye (san okenn vye derapaj), fòk ou pa pèdi enèji ou nan suiv "move pist" senpman paske moun ap amize yo di "men koulèv la!"

Pa respè pou zansèt ou, pou zansèt mwen, menm jan parèyman, nou pa fèt pou nou rete nan vye deklarasyon tankou "analfa[bèt se bèt]" amwenske ou pare pou defann sa ou di la. Ou te mèt chache kabre mwen tankou Garrincha (se abitid ou sa menm, Michel!!!) men li klè kou dlo kòk ke ou pa ajoute anyen ki ta kab plizoumwen esplike otreman pawòl sa:
[quote]Kidnape ti moun lekol montre kle ke analfabet se bet tout bon vre...
Nou we kounyen la ke analfabet se bet tout bon vre.[/quote]

Si ou regrèt sa ou di a, li ta bon pou di sa tou. Nou pa bezwen rantre ni nan politik, ni nan ideyoloji. IT'S AS BASIC AS IT GETS.

Tidodo_

Post by Tidodo_ » Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:20 pm

[quote] From the perspective of one who lives in Haiti [soon to leave] [/quote]

Dunord, I cannot beleive my eyes! Have you really given up?

[quote]the diaspora who seem to have all the answers but don't want to pay with anything but words and more political B.S. [/quote]

Dunord,

If you leave Haiti, like you alluded to above, you will also become a "do-nothing" diaspora with words and ...#@&%. The reality is that the people leaving in Haiti, at least the way I see it, will have to be the first ones to start and execute the changes. They may, or will, need the help of the diaspora. But alone, the diaspora cannot make the changes. The diaspora cannot even be the catalyst for change, I may surmise! You are overestimating the power of the diaspora, and, at the same time, in denial of the fear the people, now living in Haiti, have for those living in the diaspora, in terms of having control over matters happening in the country.

Regarding the MINUSTAH, your comments make a lot of sense to me. I have been trying to understand what is really happening in Haiti, in terms of the relationship between MINUSTAH and the people of Haiti. You have just helped me in that understanding.

Like I said in previous posts, it seems to me that the problems in Haiti are very complex. The magic solutions claimed by many do a disservice to the country and represent a step backward, as they discourage efforts at real solutions.

Tidodo_

Post by Tidodo_ » Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:25 pm

[quote] If there is any future for Haiti it was exhibited yesterday when the poor and not so poor attempted to get the kidnappers away from the police and MINUSTAH so that everyone would understand justice in Haiti when cowards kidnap children. Privately we are united in this and left alone we would stop it. The kidnappers and thugs relinquish their human rights when they steal, torture and kill children. In the absence of a functioning justice system we can and will take care of the problem.[/quote]

Dunord,

I understand your frustration and that of the people having to deal with the kidnappings daily. But, un-organized justice is a recipe for more chaos.

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