Visite officielle du président élu René Préval à Cuba

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Post by admin » Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:23 pm

I think so too, Michael... at least in terms of a closer integration of Haiti of Haiti in Latin America.

I think that we need to integrate better with CARICOM as well. Perhaps there was a good reason for the absence of relief from CARICOM countries, at the time of Hurricane Jeanne. If Aristide had not been deposed, and the Latortue government not gone out of its way to antagonize CARICOM, claiming out loud that Haiti had no need whatsoever for CARICOM (they later changed their mind, all too predictably), claiming also that it was CARICOM that needed Haiti, severing recalling its diplomatic personnel, and making all sorts of really UGLY NOISE in the wake of CARICOM's support for the democratically elected government of Haiti, things might have turned out quite differently. I think that it would not be fair to put the blame squarely on CARICOM's doorstep. You must recall that the Boniface/Latortue government, in their servility to French and U.S. interests, made an absolute mess of Haiti's international relations. Sometimes Nature (or God, some would say) has a way to help you pull the trigger when you keep pointing it at your own foot.

Fidel Castro has certainly been more generous to Haiti than the government of the United States, in very large measure. I can't speak to his motivation, but that is an established fact. The Cubans helped to open a medical school in Port-au-Prince; the Americans closed it down.

All we hear about is that the U.S. sends billions and billions of dollars to Haiti, but where does that money go? Some Americans become very rich on money "given" to the poor people of Haiti.

As always, one should always trace the flow of money. That's how the U.S. generosity should truly be measured.

A smart policy for Préval is to nurture good (not servile) relations with the U.S. (if he is allowed) as he seeks partnerships for the development of Haiti from other sources in Haiti's geopolitical sphere (CARICOM, Dominican Republic, and Latin America). The U.S. could play a positive role, but in no way should that prevent Haitians from cultivating partnerships with others who could turn out to be more reliable and less controlling of internal matters. The future will tell.

Michel Nau_

Post by Michel Nau_ » Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:54 pm

Guy wrote: [quote]Fidel Castro has certainly been more generous to Haiti than the government of the United States, in very large measure. I can't speak to his motivation, but that is an established fact. [/quote]
Do you have any statistical data that shows this established fact?
Guy wrote: [quote]I can't speak to his motivation[/quote]
Let me give you one Castro's motivation for Venezuela and you give me one for Haiti
The Cuban presence in Venezuela has increased since the “doctors-for-oil” programme began two years ago. The scheme, run by President Chavez, has attracted thousands of Cuban staff. In exchange the oil-rich country sends Cuba 90,000 barrels of oil a day.
For Haiti's case what could be Castro's motivation? Just make a wild guest. Pa di'm ke w b'we pwa!
Guy wrote: [quote]All we hear about is that the U.S. sends billions and billions of dollars to Haiti, but where does that money go? Some Americans become very rich on money "given" to the poor people of Haiti. [/quote]
Here we go again playing the victim and blaming the blan. Who are those Haitian people who let the blan took all the money? They must be really really stupid to get billions of dollars and get somebody else took them.

Guy wrote: [quote]As always, one should always trace the flow of money. That's how the U.S. generosity should truly be measured.[/quote]

Ohh really!!! If generosity should be truly measured with the flow of money, then you statement cited above about Castro has been more generous to Haiti than the U.S. government is full of hot air.

If generosity should be truly measured with the flow of money. show us the money from Castro! OH Oh I forgot that:"Some Americans become very rich on money "given" to the poor people of Haiti". Blan merikin yo volo lajan Castro ba nou an!!

Li le pou nou sispand jwe, e di bagay serye!!!

Michel

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Post by admin » Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:24 pm

Michel, I already knew that you were going to respond, and exactly in the manner that you did. But, as practically always, you will misunderstand or willingly put the wrong spin on something that was written, when you do not deliberately misquote it. To observe the flow of money is not the same thing as evaluating the quantity of money. My statement stands.

As an exercise for you, go and investigate the flow of, what'd they say again, the one billion of dollars supposedly provided to Haiti to reform its justice system in the wake of Aristide's return from exile in 1994.

You measure generosity only in terms of dollars, something that does not surprise me one bit. It is your automatic defense of U.S. foreign assitance that is full of hot air, and boy, don't we always feel the heat coming from you.

"Show us the money from Castro!," you say. Sorry to disappoint you, brother. I know that it's a professional reflex on your part. But I could tell you of my own personal observations of the work done by Cuban doctors and veterinarians in Haiti. Hard for me to quantify it in dollars for you. my friend.

Perhaps you best go back to your financial spreadsheets, so you will not have to explain why the U.S. found it necessary to close a medical school in Haiti when the Marines got in to insure peace in the wake of still another coup d'état.

Seriously, you and I do not speak the same language. That's why you always misunderstand or "misunderestimate" somehow or at least pretend to do so.

Michel Nau_

Post by Michel Nau_ » Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:41 pm

Guy wrote: [quote]"You measure generosity only in terms of dollars, something that does not surprise me one bit. But I could tell you of my own personal observations of the work done by Cuban doctors and veterinarians in Haiti. Hard for me to quantify it in dollars for you. my friend.[/quote] Guy my brother! You are sightless with your dogma that you are incapacitated to do a rational analysis without reveal your true identity. An ideologist, dreamer 100%, krik krak taller.
Why this double standard?
I measured US government generosity in terms of dollars, you started it when you said billions as a measurement, and I agree with you, and this is how economists, statisticians, and politicians and the REAL world use this variable (dollars) to measure and evaluate past present and future events... But it's hard for you to quantify Castro help to Haiti in dollars because ideology for you is priceless, and therefore can not statistically measure.
This is how “demagogists”, fake prophets, populists talk and brainwash their followers. Parole, parole, pawol met la!!

Your own personal observations of the work done by Cuban doctors and veterinarians in Haiti is just that “PERSONAL” sa se biznis pa w!
You have been indoctrinating my brother!! This is not what Haiti wants now!!
We want political prisoners to be liberated in Haiti, and as well as in Cuba.
Tell Castro that we want a free press in Cuba.
We want free election in Cuba, just like Haiti; let the Cuban boat people go free. Anything else is hypocritical.

We, Haitians have an obligation to teach these young Cuban doctors and other professionals in Haiti about free elections, free media, human right, and freedom of speech so they can go home and liberate their country that has been under communist dictatorship for more than four decades.

We want them to feel free to ask for political asylum at the American Embassy in Haiti and to show Castro that they can make their own choice. We Haitians just like we are free, we have an obligation to open the door of freedom for these young Cuban Doctors and professionals.

Michel

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Post by admin » Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:06 pm

Well said, brother. I have no problem revealing my true identity.

Let freedom ring! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

Perhaps when you decide to take your head out of the sand (which is always possible, considering your frequent reversals on this forum), we'll continue the conversation.

Until then, continue voye monte, and be America's perfect freedom fighter!

Tidodo_

Post by Tidodo_ » Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:57 am

Reyalite èd Ameriken an se lafimen li ye. Se yon "cercle vicieux" li ye. Lè Gouvènman Ameriken ba w èd ekonomik, li soti lakay li epi li tounen lakay li ankò. Sekivedi, lajan an sèvi pou peye pou pwodyi ak Konsiltan Ameriken sèlman. Kom yon Ameriken - mwen natiralize m - mwen pa gen pwoblèm avèk sa. Men, sa pa vle di ke m oblije repete idyosi Michel yo.

Ameriken bay èd sèlman ki benefisye gouvènman ou pèp Ameriken an sèlman. Anjeneral, èd Gouvènman Ameriken an bay, se èd militè sèlman li ye, eksepte pou Israyèl e sèten pwogram ra tankou "Marshall Plan." Se sak fè, pi gwo jan dyaspora ka ede, se fè yo fò Ozetazini pou yo ka ede Ayiti menm jan Jwif Ozetazini ap fè yo.

Kanta pou peyi Karayib yo, Gouvènman Ameriken an se èd militè sèlman li bay yo, lan analiz final lan. Lè yon Gouvènman Ameriken eseye bay èd ekonomik, tankou sou Clinton, gwoup Repibliken ak moun biznis yo rele'l "GASPIYAY" e "BIG SPENDER," epi yo bloke l.

Gouvènman Ameriken toujou ap reklame ke yo bay Ayiti èd. Lè ou gade peyi a jodi a, ou ka wè ki kote èd lan pase. Wi, yo depanse lajan vre, tilajan. Men lajan an pa ale pou peye efò devlopman Ayiti, men pito pou regle zafè Gouvènman Ameriken. Tankou mwen di w anwo a, se Ameriken mwen ye, kidonk mwen pa gen pwoblèm avèk sa. Men, mwen paka kite Michel fè m :"Zafè kakaje se linèt lan!"

An 2000, mwen te ale Fondwa, lan zòn Jakmèl, lan yon reyinyon avèk yon òganizasyon Ameriken pou ede Ayiti. Mwen te rankontre avèk doktè veterinè Kiben yo, pa aza. Lè yap eksplike jan yo ap montre Ayisyen ki fèmye yo jan pou yo triple pwodiksyon agrikilti yo e jan pou yo fè bèt yo ak animal yo grandi e gwosi pi vit, se yon bagay fòmidab. Sak pi enpòtan an, se teknik yo ititlze pou montre peyizan an plante e elve bèt yo. Mwen pa gen tan la, men mwen ta renmen ba w yon lide jan yo fè l.

Apre twa mwa veterinè yo ak agwonòm Kiben yo wè ke peyizan yo pa fè pwogrè Kiben yo vle an, yo reyini ansanm epi yo deside ke se yo menm Kiben yo ki pa fè yon bon travay ak peyizan an. Yo montre peyizan an, men peyizan an pa aprann. Kiben yo deside kounye a, ilfo ke peyizan yo fè yo konfyans pou li aprann. Yo deside ke twa jou pa semèn, Kiben yo pral pase l ap dòmi, manje e viv kay peyizan yap aprann agrikilti ak elvaj lan. Lan twa mwa, rezilta a triple lan zòn lan. Now, Guy, can you give Michel some statistics on this?

J-M.

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Post by admin » Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:04 am

Thanks for your rebuttal, Jean-Marie, but let me quickly get something out of the way: I have U.S. citizenship too, but I strive to be an ethical American, first of all. I do not have to accept all the superexploitative economic practices of the United States, not when they cause economic distress to my country of birth to which I remain attached ak kòd lonbrit mwen. I am not saying this in opposition to you, because I do know that in practice you strive for the same ideals and you are certainly just as attached to the culture of Haiti as I am. What is good for the economic elite of America and for the multinationals is not necessarily good for all Americans in the long run. The exploitation of poor countries, through the economics of foreign aid and external debt, ably implemented by the World Bank, IMF, and IADB, do not necessarily represent a model that Americans should revere simply because it is good for their bottom line. They also have to deal with the immigration forces exerted by the serious imalances of living conditions in the Americas. I don't think for instance that as many Haitians would leave Haiti (and any other place) in such large numbers, and at the risk of their lives and personal freedom, if the economic conditions back home were better. Indeed a smart economic policy should take into account a reduction in the grave economic disparities that make the U.S. such an irresistible magnet for poor huddled masses south of the border. To keep impoverishing them for strict economic gains can lead to crises of a human scale you had rather avoid (because they end up being quite costly too).

Jean-Marie, you talk about "the flow" of money, where it starts and where it ends up, something that Michel does not even appear capable of conceptualizing. As soon as I talked of "the flow" of money, he started asking me about how much money Castro gave to the Haitian government, a notion that truly is absurd. One knows that the Cuban economy has been strapped for cash, for many years. Where the hell would they find large sums of money to send to Haiti when they so desperately need it themselves?

But would it be so wrong to consider other types of aid, which do have beneficial effects on a national economy, such as the formation of medical doctors who actually go back to Haiti, the donation of fish egg stocks to fill the man-made lakes of brother Franklyn Armand in the Central Plateau, the import of sturdy Cuban chicken and their crossing with local varieties to help combat mysterious avian flus that have been affecting our indigenous poultry stock for years, the teaching of proper husbandry and agricultural techniques (such as giving animals enough rest and shade from the sun to prolong their productive years), the production of and proper application of short-term and long-term compost, and the list goes on (but that can be the subject of a different post). As for statistics, let's get them from the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Agriculture in Haiti, in as much as they are the keepers of such statistics. But you are not going to bring me down the line of that deceitful game where you start comparing on a quantitative basis the "financial assistance" from USAID with other forms of assistance that may be provided by more reliable partners of Haiti, who do not insist on having total control of the political process in exchange for their humanitarian assistance.

Furthermore, generosity as I understand it is a human quality, not an economics stat. If you were in need and Bill Gates gives you $20 (and making sure he gets back $18 of the principal, for consulting purposes, plus interest) and I, on the other hand, would give you $1 out of my meager budget, which contribution do you think would be the most generous? I am not implying, by the way, any lack of generosity from the part of Bill Gates, I just chose his name because everyone knows that he is one of the world's richest men.

The flow of money can actually impoverish a country, and Haiti would be an excellent academic case for that, just like the discovery of oil in third world countries usually spells doom for their people. It all depends on how assistance money ends up being used. USAID actually testified to Congress, a few years back, that out of every $100 they spend, $98+ comes right back to the U.S. (mostly in consulting fees, interest on loans, and other less palatable schemes). And what do they get for the dollar and change that stays overseas? A lot more than you would expect from the normal purchasing power of the dollar, thereby justifying the U.S. investment many times over.

As for Michel's propaganda about the U.S. insistence for the release of political prisoners and free elections "like in Haiti", and freedom of the press, I really do not have the time for so much horse manure. Michel can recycle it all he wants, it still remains horse manure. Deep down, Michel himself knows better. I can't speak to his motivation to be an evangelist for U.S. imperialism on this forum, but I do not have to worry about his ability to convince anyone. As Haitians always say: "Kaka je pa linèt".

We can see for ourselves the fate of political prisoners in Haiti during the Boca Raton government, the fate of so-called enemy combatants in Guantanamo, the fate of poor farmers in Colombia, the fate of over 100,000 Iraqis paying in blood for George Bush's peculiar brand of freedom, the fate of Haitian immigrants in America's so-called detention centers, the fate of Joseph Dantica, the fate of Daniel and David Joseph, the fate of victims of the graduates from the School of the Americas, et cetera.

As for "free elections", we are still paying the price for manufactured elections in the United States of America. But by all means, Michel will go charging blindly for "freedom", exactly like George Bush does. Sounds nice, but no one is taking the bait anymore. Sorry Charlie, only tuna that tastes good gets to be Starkist.

Michel, you can continue to be as insulting as you want (to an extent!) and you can continue your propagandistic aims on this forum, as much as you care. But you and your conservative Republicanism have lost a lot of credibility these last few years. Until you wipe out the trails of blood and misery, you may have a hard time convincing anyone of your great passion for freedom.

Increasingly, the bitter taste of your policies is being felt right at your doorsteps in Washington, DC.

Leonel JB

Post by Leonel JB » Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:41 pm

Michel, how more ungrateful can you be?

I don't know if your tiny intellect would tell you. But, Guy S Antoine gave us this site without a dime! He is one of the greatest human beings, unlike you Mr Washington! Now, you feel like you have the right to insult him...

I am sorry, but you need to tell your Masters that they are going after the wrong one and they should use a brighter individual! You really think Guy is sightless?

You are probably right! For, not knowing that Ou mEt abiye bourik, depi midi sonnen fOl ranni kanmenm.

Who is the dreamer? And what is wrong with dreaming of making you a Smarter Human? Instead of licking DC Boots...

Anyway, I had to go overboard a little. Paske ou reyelman panse ou ka kraponnen nEg ak bagay dwat e gOCh sa yo.

Guy, Tidodo, I'm sorry. But, I had to mention this.

What have you done for us lately? Guy has proven again and again his Dreams!!!

L'union fait la Force,
leonel

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