.......... signature de 3 accords pour 20 millions d'Euros

Post Reply
Tidodo_

Post by Tidodo_ » Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:15 am

Frantz,

Mwen pa konprann jan repòtè sa yo ekri nouvèl lan! Eske se bay peyi Ewòp yo bann nou lajan an, oubyen eske se prete yo prete nou lajan sa? Jan lajan an vini gen dwa pi enpòtan ke sa yo di yo pra l fè avè li!

J-M.

Michel Nau_

Post by Michel Nau_ » Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:35 am

Frank ekri : [quote]Poukisa akò ap siyen toujou ak gouvènman sa? Ki kalite angajman yap kontinye mete nan gagann pèp lan? Adye! [/quote]
Frantz, gouvenman transisyon an la toujou jiskaske gouvenman Preval la monte ofisyelman sou pouvwa.
Yo gendwa siyin ako avek lot gouvenman, apre konsiltasyon e chichotay avek Team Preval la. Pa gen anyin ke gouvenman tranzisyon an fe ke lot mesye yo kap vini yo pa okouran.

Se memm jan le wap ranplase yon neg nan yon job, avan ke neg la ale li montre yon tout sake li tap fet e se li ki siyin tout papye avan ke lale e tout bagay sa yo fet avek knosantman biro a ou tou. Sa rele transparansi
Apre le li lale, chaj la sou do ou konnye la.
Tidodo ekri:[quote]Mwen pa konprann jan repòtè sa yo ekri nouvèl lan! Eske se bay peyi Ewòp yo bann nou lajan an, oubyen eske se prete yo prete nou lajan sa? Jan lajan an vini gen dwa pi enpòtan ke sa yo di yo pra l fè avè li![/quote]
ECONOMIE ET FINANCE [HPN] a rapporté :[quote]Haiti: l'UE renforce sa coopération avec Haiti, signature de 3 accords pour 20 millions d'Euros
Posté le 16 mars 2006. Un programme de réhabilitation de la ville de Gonaives et de ses environs, profite d'un montant de 8 millions €. Le programme de gestion locale du risque, a bénéficié d'un montant de 6 millions €, Enfin, 6 millions d'euros iront au programme de sécurité alimentaire.[/quote]
Gen plizye fason ke organizasyon, moun e gouvenman etranje bay lajan a lot organizasyon, moun, e lot peyi.

Loans ou prete. Le ou gouvenman al mande prete lajan/loans sou do pep la pou yo fe yon proje de developman, se paleman Ayisyen ki aprouve pre sa. Le pli souvan fok peyi a remet lajan/loan sa bak e avek intere. Si gen gaspiyaj ki fet nan lajan sa, paleman Ayisyen gen dwa mande de ki prevyen a moun, e konpayi e employe leta kou sivil ki rout e ki kote ke lajan pep la fe. Yo kap mem mete anpil moun nan prizon pou lajan sa.

Grants ou donasyon. Gouvenman soumet yon proposal ou byen proje by sponsor la (peyi a, moun ou byen oganizasyon kap bay la jan an). Yo soumet yon Proposal byen detaye ki di kisa ke yo pral fe avek lajan sa, e yo gen dwa fe proje a san ke yopa remet lajan sa. Se yon lajan gratis, min yo gen yon responsabilite pou yo fe yon bon travay otreman, yo pap jwen la jan gratis sa yo anko.

Cooperative/agreement. Nan ka sa se peyi kap bay lajan ki fe yon etid e li we kisa ki genyen pou fet e konbyen kob kesa ap koute.
Pa egsanp L'UE di ke dapre etid li fe, Haiti ap bezwen 20 million Euros pou fe 3 travay sa yo e se yo kap kontrole e sipevize travay sa yo.
Travay sa sou control yo. Si travay sa yo pa reisi, fot la ap sou do yo e yo gen dwa e Ayiti gen dwa sispand travay yo. Egsanp, rout Jacmel la se yon cooperasyon ke li te ye ant gouvenman Ayisyen e peyi la france.

Kidonk, loans ou prete. Fok ou remet lajan sa bak plis intere!! E se paleman Ayisyen ki pou aprouve proje yo e pre pou finanse yo.
Peyi pov fet pou fe atansyon a loan sa yo, paske yo kap pase nan move kondisyon paske peyi ki prete w lajan sa pap sipevize ni gen dwa foure bouch li nan travay la!!

Grants ou donasyon. Nan ka sa, fok gouvenman Ayisyen di egzakteman ki sal pral fe avek lajan sa e si proje a ap benefisye pep la e peyi a.
La jan sa gratis e li konpetitif!
Sa vle di ke gen lot ti peyi ki bezwen e ki deye la jan gratis sa tou.
ONGs yo e lot oganizasyon yo konnin ki kote ke lajan gratis sa yoye. Lajan sa yo kap lajan dyab ou byen lajan bondye. Fe atansyon!!

E finalman cooperasyon. Lajan sa se yon lajan mare kod lonbrit. Nan ka sa, se peyi kap bay la jan ki di Ayiti min kisa poufe avek lajan sa e yo gen dwa sipevise travay la e mem sispand finanseman travay la, si yo we ke gouvenman pap pratike bonn gouvenans. Cooperasyon se yon ako kondisyonel ke li ye.

Michel

Tidodo_

Post by Tidodo_ » Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:11 pm

Michel,

Mèsi pou eksplikasyon an. Men, ou pa reponn kesyon m lan non. Paske sa ou banmwen an se diferan definisyon de prè, don, ak kooperasyon. Sa m mande, eske akò EU se yon "grant" li ye, oubyen eske se yon "loan" oubyen yon kooperasyon teknik? Mwen pa p pale anjeneral. Map pale presizeman de akò ki siyen an.

J-M.

Michel Nau_

Post by Michel Nau_ » Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:18 pm

Tdodo ekri: [quote]Sa m mande, eske akò EU se yon "grant" li ye, oubyen eske se yon "loan" oubyen yon kooperasyon teknik?[/quote]
Mwen pi si ke se yon kooperasyon Teknik ke li ye.

Yo chwazi Gonaives, paske ville sa te sibi yon gwo desas kote ke te gen anpil moun ki te mouri. Depi le sa vil la e anvironnman an te vinn nan move zeta. Pat gen bon dlo, pat gen infrastrikti, pat gen administrasyon sosyal, pat gen manje e pa gen travay.

Kidonk Unyon Eropeyen nan voye yon group expe pou yo evaliye dega yo e le etid finn fet, yo decide organize e fe travay la yo memm avek kolaborasyon gouvenman Ayisyen.
Le gen yon kooperasyon, se peyi kab bay lajan ki gen control tout bagay kap fet.

Si ou pran egsanp vil Jacmel la, depi route de l'amitie sa fini fet, tout zonn Jacmel fini develope net alkole.

Si proje sa yo mache byen konn sa dwa, prediksyon mwen se ke Gonaives ap vini pi bel vil touristik payi d ‘Ayiti. E konn mwen se neg ki optimis e ki we louyen, Gonaive kap gen potansyal poul antre an konkirans ak PotoPrins e memm kap vini kapital peyi d'Ayiti.
Ou pa jamb konnin !!
Se la ke zanset nou yo te kreye drapo nou an, e se la ke kat la te bat e zanmitay neg nwa ak neg milat t makonnin ansamb!
Haiti may reborn.... again !!

Link pi ba yo ap ba w yon lide de travay peyi sa yo. Peze "Ctrl" and click sou link yo.
Tidodo pa bliye bookmark li pou sa fe yon ti lekti detanzantan.

http://europa.eu.int/abc/panorama/index_fr.htm

http://europa.eu.int/comm/atoz_fr.htm

Bonne lecture :D

Michel

Michel Nau_

Post by Michel Nau_ » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:47 pm

Frantz ekri: [quote]eske w sèten ke Latortue te konsilte Prezidan eli an sou akò an? [/quote]
Non Frantz, w pakap metem sou ban temwen, mwen pa seten!! Fok mwen ta la e we ak 2 grenn je'm poum ta seten.
Min le yon gouvenman ap soti e yon lot ap antre, tout aktivite kifet pandan period sa avek lot peyi etranje yo, tou le 2 group moun sa yo le pli souvan pran desisyon ansamb sou koze a.

Frantz di: [quote]Epi, ki lejitimite gouvenman sa genyen pou al siyen akò ak lot peyi?[/quote] Ou kap pose memm kestiyon an a lanve.
Ki garanti lot peyi etranje yo ap jwen le yal siyen yon ako inpotan konsa avek yon lot group kap soti san ke group kap vini an pa okouran ?
Frantz kontinye ak kosman: [quote]lè w di ou "pi si' , sa souzantann ke w pa genyen konfimasyon ditou nan ponyèt ou. [/quote]
Se sa ! mwen pa gen konfimasyon !!
Sepandan, dapre egperyans mwen avek plisye tip de kontra e program de developman ant peyi e organizasyon, aksyon sa se yon aksyon kooperativ ke li sanse ta ye. Le mwen di « pi si » mwen vle di ke « It's more likely that ».
Yon lot ti bagay ke mwen ta remin ajoute se ke yon CEO ou konpayi pa bezwen yon CPA, ni konn li yon balance sheet, ou byen yon income statement pouli siyen anba yon rapo!
Li bezwen selman ke mesye direkte, manager comtab yo bali garanti e asirans ke rapo a bon e nan avantaj konpayi an.

Memm jan ke LONU gen ekip avoka, contab, docte an syans politik, e sosyal ki mete kontra sa sou pye. Peyi d'Ayiti fet pou li genyen ekip pal tou pou analize kontra sa pou yo pa pran nan fo mamit.

Si se yon kontra ki mal taye, pep la ap konn sa kanmemm!!
Nan beyin toutouni, neg pakap kache lonbrit.
Viv la tranparansi!!!
Mwen swete ke mwen repond kestyon yo.

Kenbe la Frantz, Tidodo e tout lot mamb yo.

Michel :D

Michel Nau_

Post by Michel Nau_ » Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:46 pm

Frantz ekri: [quote]Nou menm ayisyen konsidere gouvènman Latortue kòm defacto[ illegal e ilejitim], peyi gwo ponyèt yo rekonèt li kòm yon gouvènman legal. [/quote]
Peyi gwo ponyet yo pa rekonet gouvenman de facto a kom yon gouveman legal, ni lejitim. Min sepandan, se yon gouvenman fonksyonel.

Frantz, yon gouvenman defacto se yon gouvenman kap fonksyone normalman, san ke malerezman yo pa pase par la lwa legal e konstitisyonel peyi a.

Kidonk si L'ONU ki konpoze de plisye peyi rekonet otorite mesye sa yo kom represantan peyi d'Ayiti pou siyen kontra sa, w kom ayisyen, pakap inyore otorite mesye sa yo ni aksyon ke yo komet, ni ak key o pose pandan period ke nou ye a.

Map pran yon egsanp avek w:

Yon neg ki plase avek yon fem ke li jwen ki gen 8 pitit. Se neg la ki peye lwaye kay, li bay manje nan kay la, li peye edikasyon ti moun yo, li fe lanmou ak fem li normalman. Tout moun nan vwazinaj la rekonet ke misye kom otorite nan kay. Sel problem nan senario sa se ke mesye pa marye nan legliz, ni nan tribinal pou legalize e lejitimize inyon sa nan je sosyete. A pa de sa tout bagay rekonet e fonksyone normalman nan kay la.

Devan letenel e la sosyete sivil, misye se yon mari de facto, min fonksyonel, e otoriter.

Eske w panse ke pitit fem nan e res moun kap viv nan kay la kankou w menm gen dwa di ke yo pa rekonet otorite misye, ni zak e aksyon ke li pose nan kay la, ni zanmitay ke li genyen avek res vwazinaj yo, pou la sel rezon ke misye pa marye avek fem nan??

Frantz kontinye ak kozman:[quote]Yon Chef konpayi tankou yon CEO, oblje konnen egzakteman sa l ap siyen.[/quote]

Frantz, nou fek finn travay sou yon kontra kite genyen 500 paj ladann. Nou te yon ekip de 10 moun ( contab, avoka, sosyal woke, dokte, manaje etc). Apre yon mwa, nou fe ap travay sou kontra sa, fe koreksyon, retire e mete, e kenbe kontak ak lot pati a. Anfin nou rezime kontra a an 12 paj e nou bay boss nou poul al negosye. Li li 12 paj yo an plizye fwa, e li poze nou anpil kestyon.

Le tout bagay finn fet e li santi ke li alez, boss la siyen kontra original la kite genyen 500 paj la.

Li pat obli konnin egkakteman mo pou mo sa li fek finn siyen an.

Le George Bush pral siyen yon trete nukleye ki gen 1,200 paj ladann, li pa chita li kontra paj pou paj ni poul konnin tout definisyon zam nikleye, misil, proliferasyon, balistik, logistic etc.
Li selman fe neg nan komite kap travay sou zafe sa konfians avan ke li menm kap siyen san grate tet yon trete de 1,200 paj..

Se transparansi sa ke nou menm ti neg ayisyen nou fe defo.
Nou toujou ap kouri devan e fe bagay an kachet pou nou sa pran kredi, min pa avek bonn intansyon pou sevi pep la kom sa dwa.
Travay politisyen se sevi e gen redevans a pep la.
Se sevite ke yo fet pou ye. Yo pa fet pou profite!!

Afe sevis la, nou pa pratike sa ditou lakay nou, fok nou gen yon ti chocho pou tet pa nou kanmenm.
Sa rele fe kontay sou do pep la, dealing under the table.

Malerezman, male pa mal, bagay yo pafwa kom pase mal, e pou atire sinpati e podyab li, e cache inkonpetans e inyorans yo, yo konri di ke yo pat konnin, ou byen se blan yo ki tronpe yo.
Ti neg ap mete chaj la sou do blan.

Ala kote ke blan yo gen bon do papa!! The devil made me do it!!

Michel

User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2153
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:03 pm

Post by admin » Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:54 am

Frantz, what you wrote is clear as the water from the coconut. One does not have to supposedly manage contracts worth "billions of dollars" in Washington D.C. to be swayed by Michel's false assurances that Latortue is not continuing to sell Haitians down the river by signing those agreements. This, coming at the heels of his ridiculous assertion that he did not understand the contents of the papers he was signing at the United Nations, where he ratified MINUSTAH's de facto control over the Haitian Police force. [Remember that MINUSTAH had clearly asserted that authority, much earlier, at an incident in Port-au-Prince's international airport when they prevented the Haitian National Police from arresting a suspect in smuggling and kidnapping activities, who worked for the U.N.] Michel would excuse all of Latortue's treasonous acts as mere "gaffes", and in his folksy manner, continue to coat our throat with honey, all the more to prepare us to swallow ANY solution concocted by Haiti's powerful "friends". But Michel, in spite of your very consistent efforts on this forum (and so, despite the all the too obvious writing inconsistencies!!) to sell us the foreign solution for Haiti, we continue to believe that "KAKA JE PA LINÈT" and we are not unquestioning (as you have always seem to be) of those "friendly" overtures from the "international community" towards Haiti. Continue to defend incompetence and grave irresponsibility as you may, but we have long ago decided to think for ourselves and let History be our guide in deciphering what goes on in the present. You have been doing a miserable job of trying to convince us that this theater of the absurd, in forever repeating acts, is as real as it gets. We will continue to believe that another reality is possible for a self-determining Haiti. And if we should die with that conviction, then so be it. But your peddling of D.C. influence will not succeed. It's not for nothing that Haitians have not taken to playing baseball.

Tidodo_

Post by Tidodo_ » Sun Mar 19, 2006 11:04 am

[quote]Yon lot ti bagay ke mwen ta remin ajoute se ke yon CEO ou konpayi pa bezwen yon CPA, ni konn li yon balance sheet, ou byen yon income statement pouli siyen anba yon rapo!
Li bezwen selman ke mesye direkte, manager comtab yo bali garanti e asirans ke rapo a bon e nan avantaj konpayi an.[/quote]

Michel,

Frantz finn ba w repons lan kòmsadwatèt. Men, m ta renmen ajoute sou li. Ki kote ou bare a koze sa? Mwen dakò avè w ke yon CEO pa bezwen yon CPA pou l siyen ou rapò. Aprè sa, tout rès sa ou di a, mwen pa ka jwenn egzanp pou pwouve yo vre.

Kòm yon egzanp, aprè pwoblèm Enron ak Worldcom lan, the Security Exchange Commission (SEC) pase yon lwa pou fòse CEO yo responsab rapò konpanyi yo voye bay SEC. Yo oblije siyen tout rapò yo voye bay SEC kounye an. Se te yon jan pou yo pa di yo pa konn sak lan rapò yo.

Lè w siyen yon rapò 500 paj, menm bagay avèk yon ipotèk, li pa vle di ou li tout mo ki lan 500 paj lan, paske gen de pati ladan l ki se "boiler plate." Lè w kòmanse li yon paragraf e ou santi li se "boiler plate", w ale lan dènye mo yo ki lan paragraf lan, oubyen liy pa liy. Si se sa w ekspekte, ou janbe lan pwochen paragraf lan. Men, sa pa vle di ou pa li tout. Paske, tout sa ki pa "boiler plate", ilfo ke w li yo e konprann yo. Si ou pa konprann yo, w al mande anplwaye w yo esplikasyon ki sak ladan yo e poukisa.

Lòt bagay mwen ta vle di w Michel, sè ke enjeneral tout CEO yo gen, omwen, yon diplòm lan biznis. Lan tout inivèsite ki anseye biznis, ou oblije pran detwa kou sou Accounting e Financial Statement Analysis. Ou pa bewzen yon CPA pou yo ba w yon Master's Degree lan biznis. Se de bagay diferan. Dayè, se pa souvan ou jwenn yon CPA kòm CEO. Leplisouvan, se moun lan finans, operasyon ou vant ki vin CEO.

J-M.

Leonel JB

Post by Leonel JB » Sun Mar 19, 2006 2:29 pm

Michel, si w se yon CEO, tout nEg sa yo ap fE w malad monvye!

Ou fE m sezi wi. kifE la GW Bush pa bezwen konn sa l siyen yo???

Bill Gates pa bezwen nonplis, paske li fE anplaye l yo konfians?

Kote lOt Michel la?

Ban m wE kijan w pwal naje pou w sOti nan deblozay sa a...

leonel

Michel Nau_

Post by Michel Nau_ » Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:55 pm

Guy wrote:[quote]It's not for nothing that Haitians have not taken to playing baseball.[/quote]
That's too bad Guy!
Look at the Dominican Republic, Cuba, South Korea, Japan, and Mexico they beaten the US in its own game and laughing all the way to the bank.

May be we should think about sports, and entertainments as a form of economic development.
Who knows! We may have a Sammy Sosa, a Mike Tyson or another Wyclef Jean somewhere in Cite Soleil who could have brought million of dollars to their community.
Talented people make millions without the need of a formal education.

Espirito santo in corpore sano!!
Vive le sport aba politique!!

Michel :D

Tidodo_

Post by Tidodo_ » Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:53 am

Michel,

Ou chanje sijè a papa! M te kwè se de moun kap siyèn papye san yo pa gen otorite dèyè yo pou siyen papye yo? Kididonk, nou tep pale de enkonpetans ak koripsyon.

[quote]Talented people make millions without the need of a formal education. [/quote]

Si m konprann byen, Ayiti pa bezwen pèdi tan l lan edike ti moun oubyen envesti lan pwogram dèvlopman. Nou pa bezwen anseye yo rekonpans travay di. Ann al chèche dekouvri pito ki ti Ayisyen ki gen talan.

Si ou vle tounen lan spò, gen yon pwogram foutbòl ke Ayisyen genyen. Sèl sa pou nou fè, tankou tout lòt bagay ke Ayisyen ap travay sou yo, se pran yo oserie e fè yon pi bon travay ke nou te konn fè sou yo avan. Se sak fè li enpòtan ke lè nap resevwa èd, ke nou asire nou ke kondisyon prè yo ou don yo kontribiye a ede nou e non fè nou vinn pi depandan de yon seri de lòt moun.

J-M.

User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2153
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:03 pm

Post by admin » Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:23 am

I think that Michel completely missed my point about Haitians and baseball. Perhaps I was too obscure. So, I will repeat what I said, leaving aside the baseball reference (I do have a sports section on this forum, but it has never attracted much interest for whatever reasons).

Shall I put the ball back in play?

Frantz, what you wrote is clear as the water from the coconut. One does not have to supposedly manage contracts worth "billions of dollars" in Washington D.C. to be swayed by Michel's false assurances that Latortue is not continuing to sell Haitians down the river by signing those agreements. This, coming at the heels of his ridiculous assertion that he did not understand the contents of the papers he was signing at the United Nations, where he ratified MINUSTAH's de facto control over the Haitian Police force. [Remember that MINUSTAH had clearly asserted that authority, much earlier, at an incident in Port-au-Prince's international airport when they prevented the Haitian National Police from arresting a suspect in smuggling and kidnapping activities, who worked for the U.N.] Michel would excuse all of Latortue's treasonous acts as mere "gaffes", and in his folksy manner, continue to coat our throat with honey, all the more to prepare us to swallow ANY solution concocted by Haiti's powerful "friends". But Michel, in spite of your very consistent efforts on this forum (and so, despite the all the too obvious writing inconsistencies!!) to sell us the foreign solution for Haiti, we continue to believe that "KAKA JE PA LINÈT" and we are not unquestioning (as you have always seemed to be) of those "friendly" overtures from the "international community" towards Haiti. Continue to defend incompetence and grave irresponsibility as you may, but we have long ago decided to think for ourselves and let History be our guide in deciphering what goes on in the present. You have been doing a miserable job of trying to convince us that this theater of the absurd, in forever repeating acts, is as real as it gets. We will continue to believe that another reality is possible for a self-determining Haiti. And if we should die with that conviction, then so be it. But your peddling of D.C. influence will not succeed.

Michel Nau_

Post by Michel Nau_ » Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:25 pm

Guy wrote:[quote] You have been doing a miserable job of trying to convince us that this theater of the absurd, in forever repeating acts, is as real as it gets. We will continue to believe that another reality is possible for a self-determining Haiti. And if we should die with that conviction, then so be it. But your peddling of D.C. influence will not succeed.[/quote]
Guy this is what Serge wrote about Latortue's action.
Serge ekri: [quote]Sa vle di pita, nenpòt ki eseye Préval ta vle eseye denonse tel ou tel kontra ousman akò paske li panse yo pa nan enterè Ayiti ak pèp ayisyen, lap viktim yon pakèt presyon politik ak ekonomik: si w pa dakò, nap sere boulon w. Esansyèlman, se nan pozisyon sa Latortue mete, non pa pwochen Gouvènman Préval la sèlman, men LETA AYISYEN. Mwen panse sa grav anpil anpil. Se yon konpòtman totalman ireskonsab!
Matière à réflexion! Pito nou rete veyatif.....Mwen sispèk yap pare yon po kan ak tout foumi pou Préval.[/quote]

Serge, welcome back!! e mwen remin ti analiz ke w fe a e imaj prediksyon an.
Yon po kan (dous) ak tout founi(pike) la dann!!
Fok misye fe bon govenans pou founi pa devorel le lap manje kan sa.
Toto Nesesite di ke, nesesite fe li fe bagay ke li dwe pat fet pou fe.
When a lide has 8 million people, and a basketcase country with all kind of problems, no wonder nesesite fe lide nou yo fe bagay ke yo pat dwe fe.
Olye ke nou joure yo de inkonpetans e kretin, an nou kontanple pwisans lot moun yo tou pou nou gade ki jan nou kap soti anba yo san ke yo pa manje nou.

We spent a lot of time passing judgments on this man alone, we should also analyzing the consequences of his acts.
As you said, Guy I have been trying to convince you folks that the reality is that: External forces play a major role on Haiti's future, but you keep saying that is not true.
This is an illusion, a mirage. This is KK Je.
So therefore Guy as you said in your above quote “You may continue to believe that another reality is possible for self-determining Haiti. And if we should die with that conviction, then so be it.” You wouldn't die!!

What you are seeing and as Serge predicted is not KK Je my friend. This is REALITY!!. If you have another reality for a self-determining Haiti in this world of globalization, you are dreaming les epopees de Dassalines et Petion gwo jounen e je kale.
And if you should die with that conviction, so be it..
Guy be real!! That conviction will not take place. Why?
Because you are dreaming! Just wake up!!

I am not promoting Washington, DC influence Guy. You just need to acknowledge that DC, Ottawa, Paris influences are alive and kicking!!

Self-determining Haiti!....with what? No gas, no electricity, no job, no healthcare, no education, an over population, and a deteriorating environment.
How are you going to do it by just thinking self-determining Haiti… In your dream?

We need all the helps we can get including those from our unavoidable and inescapable friends.(Jafrikayiti).

At least Jaf can be real……sometimes. Le li gen tet li poze. :wink:

Michel :D

Tidodo_

Post by Tidodo_ » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:09 pm

[quote]As you said, Guy I have been trying to convince you folks that the reality is that: External forces play a major role on Haiti's future, but you keep saying that is not true.[/quote]

Michel,

I cannot remember anyone disagreeing with you when you made statements similar to the one quoted. If I remember correctly, the disagreements usually came when you make the external forces' views and yours, one and the same, and try to peddle them on us. The reasons we react to them are that the external forces do not have any interest or love for Haiti. While their arguments can be sometimes very convincing, it is important to remember that their only aim is to further their goals at the expense of those of Haiti.

J-M.

Leonel JB

Post by Leonel JB » Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:21 am

Michel, I agree a lot with what you wrote in the last post. However, I still have problem with you when you agreed that one (C.E.O.) can sign a lot of papers without any knowledge on what is written in it...

Again, I agree that HAiti is in a position where it is very hard if not impossible to negotiate. Men pou on premye minis di ke l siyin on pakEt papye san ke l pa konnen sa yo ye. Mon chE, sa se enbesilite! Yo voye nou lekol pou nou pa siyin kondanasyon nou sou papye.

Now, before I leave, let me say a big welcome back to One and Our Only Serge Bellegarde.

By the way, Serge, you are absolutely right! They are trying everything to put Preval in Minefields. It is not going to be easy!

L'union fait la Force

leonel

User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2153
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:03 pm

Self-determination vs. Self-sufficiency

Post by admin » Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:00 am

Michel, bòs papa, chache konnen diferans ki egziste ant "self-determining" ak "self-sufficient".

[quote]I have been trying to convince you folks that the reality is that: External forces play a major role on Haiti's future, but you keep saying that is not true.[/quote]
You're sure that I have been telling you that it is not true that external forces play a major role in Haiti's future??? You would not mind showing me where I have said that, would you?

[quote]I am not promoting Washington, DC influence Guy.[/quote]
! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

[quote]You just need to acknowledge that DC, Ottawa, Paris influences are alive and kicking!! [/quote]
Actually, I fully acknowledge that , Michel!

[quote]Self-determining Haiti!....with what? No gas, no electricity, no job, no healthcare, no education, an over population, and a deteriorating environment.
How are you going to do it by just thinking self-determining Haiti… In your dream?[/quote]
Yes, in my dreams! With the help of a few friends... :) of my own choosing.

Also, Michel, even globalization has its limits. Christianity has not wiped out Vodou. English and French have not displaced Kreyòl. And even though, the motto for this declining empire seems to be "In Greed, We Trust", altruistic value systems seem to be sticking around still. The political landscape of Latin America is far from being the one dreamt by Washington D.C. The War in Iraq is going badly, and who knows what will actually happen of the more than 20 long term U.S. military bases in that country when civil war becomes inescapable? China is wagging its tail, contemplating a dinosaur bite of America's interests. And the changing geopolitical environment may well afford Haiti a bit of breathing space. Of course, the tyranny of global corporations is not expected to change any time soon, but with the sea of changes that are engulfing the world, including global warming and its effects on the consciousness of ordinary citizens, anything can happen. One would be foolish to be caught without a dream, when dreams may become the currency of a brand new world. Remember that in 1791-1804, our heroes too must have appeared to be foolish old men for dreaming of freedom in the face of powerful imperialistic forces, such as France, Britain, and Spain. "Only in your dream," some educated but unimaginative affranchis must have been telling them: "Just play by the rules, because they have been set for you by the international community or by external forces, if you will. Resistance is futile." A la Michel Nau, today.

In my dream, Michel. Yes, but as long as you allow me, I will continue to dream of a self-determining Haiti. Have a few laughs, if it suits you.

Michel Nau_

Post by Michel Nau_ » Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:58 pm

Tidodo wrote: [quote]The reasons we react to them are that the external forces do not have any interest or love for Haiti.[/quote]Tidodo, politics is not a dating game, so there is not need to put a personal ad for Haiti looking for love from the international Community. They don't want Haiti to go and look for love to the wrong places. That is not going to happen!
Interest yes!! The external forces (UN, OAS) do have interest in it, and one of the reasons is Haiti is a member.
They already pumped more than $1 billion, and put the life of their soldiers in jeopardy, they are not ready to cut their losses, and run regardless if Haitians like it or not.
They want to see results (dividends), and they are ready to stay as long as it takes. Time is an important factor in interest compounding, and they expect to see some interest here.
While speaking to one of my friends from Trinidad, he told me that: "Michel my brother, Haiti is and should be part of the CARICOM community. To us Caribbean, it‘s just like having a bad ass big brother who is a nightmare to the rest of the family.
We felt hopeless to see him being locked up under International penitentiary protection and without the ability to get him out.
Our heart is broken, hoping that Haitians leaders will learn their lesson and get something positive out of this ordeal”.

What he was telling me is that we are not in 1804 anymore! This is 2006. The International Community is playing slaves catchers now, and wants to bring back those who are still roaming around pretending to be free.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice this week met beyond closed door with CARICOM members excluding Haiti, and called upon their cooperation to play “commanders” and to keep an eye on Haiti, and to bring it back to where it belongs and don't let it go south of the border flirting with the wrong guys.

Michel :(

Tidodo_

Post by Tidodo_ » Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:14 pm

[quote]They already pumped more than $1 billion, and put the life of their soldiers in jeopardy, they are not ready to cut their losses, and run regardless if Haitians like it or not. [/quote]

Michel,

This is the biggest piece of propaganda for countries trying to convince they are helping other countries when in reality all they're doing is financing businesses in their own country for political reasons. How can you swallow that crap is beyond me. Haiti has been asking for economic and development help forever, and every time it has been rejected. Now they paid $1 billion, assuming your number is right, to their own citizens stationed temporarily in Haiti to carry out their own diplomatic and country's agenda, and it becomes help to Haiti, even in the eyes of Haitians, is a masterful accomplishment of brainwashing. They promised $500 million of economic help to Haiti during the Aristide #2 administration through grant and loans, they used all types of excuses to prevent them from keeping their promises and withhold the money. To make matters worse, they forced the Haitian government to pay interest on the money they never disbursed to Haiti. They are not pumping money into Haiti. If you follow the money, you can trace it back to where it came from.

The soldiers' lives they put in jeopardy are not their soldiers, but those of Sri Lanka, Nepal, Jordan, Brazil, etc. Check it again, Michel! You are buying too much of the propaganda.

J-M.

Leonel JB

Post by Leonel JB » Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:46 am

This is why WOH is a great place to go on...

When you have people like Guy, Serge, Frantz, Jaf and Tidodo who by the way, came with a great counter argument. But, of course, Michel wouldn't get it!! Why? No one knows!

First of all, Michel is swinging everywhere to get any reader very confused and lost. Second of all, he is a Master of Misinformation. Where do you get that One Billion dollars? Which, like Tidodo said, needs to be traced to who are profiting from these types of help!

Michel, let's think about that one Billion dollars which is not enough for infrastructure of a little village which will require more than that. Why did they send over one Billion dollars? If you could give more details on specific projects this money targeted??

One can not rely on the Washington Post too much!

[quote]While speaking to one of my friends from Trinidad, he told me that: "Michel my brother, Haiti is and should be part of the CARICOM community. To us Caribbean, it‘s just like having a bad ass big brother who is a nightmare to the rest of the family.
We felt hopeless to see him being locked up under International penitentiary protection and without the ability to get him out.
Our heart is broken, hoping that Haitians leaders will learn their lesson and get something positive out of this ordeal”.

What he was telling me is that we are not in 1804 anymore! This is 2006. The International Community is playing slaves catchers now, and wants to bring back those who are still roaming around pretending to be free.
[/quote]

Michel, I am lost in this one! So, Your friends from Trinidad had to remind you that we're not in 1804?? Interesting, you have some really great Friends from Trinidad!!!

Michel, have you seen how other Countries like Israel and other European Countries got helped?

Don't give me a fish daily, Show me how to fish! Would they do that? Perhaps if you believe in the New World Order à la Bush!!!

L'union fait la Force

leonel

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:24 am

[quote]...Don't give me a fish daily, Show me how to fish![/quote]
Actually, you can change it a bit:

Don't give me a fish every once in a while. Just stop disturbing the waters and I'll catch my own fish. I know how to catch and I know what kind of fish I want.

gelin

User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2153
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:03 pm

Post by admin » Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:47 am

Great thought, Gelin! I really like it and I think it applies well to Haiti's situation.

You have the potential to become Haiti's chaiman Mao.

Michel Nau_

Post by Michel Nau_ » Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:51 pm

Tidodo wrote: [quote]Now they paid $1 billion, assuming your number is right, to their own citizens stationed temporarily in Haiti to carry out their own diplomatic and country's agenda, and it becomes help to Haiti, even in the eyes of Haitians, is a masterful accomplishment of brainwashing.[/quote]
Leonel wrote: [quote]Michel, let's think about that one Billion dollars which is not enough for infrastructure of a little village which will require more than that. Why did they send over one Billion dollars? If you could give more details on specific projects this money targeted??[/quote]
Let's just assume that between 2004 to present (2006), the International Community (UN, OAS etc...), and other separate international organizations spent over $1 billion in activities related to Haiti.

Not all the money went to economic development projects. Major parts of it went to security activities, the environment, social and political activities, and above all, overhead costs.
Note that overhead cost to economic development of a poor country like Haiti is a major problem that needs to be debated soon by the new government.

Leonel is asking; where is the money, if you could give more details…
I can not give you a laundry list of every single penny spent in different projects in Haiti, but I can illustrate how the costs spent are being tabulated in financial term and allocated to come up to a figure over $1 billion.
I will take one example and you could figure it out how it trickles down to over $1 billion.
Let's imagine that Haiti is a sick patient laid in bed at a hospital, and the international Community is paying the bill.
Let's add that they own also the hospital.
Let's say that when reviewing the bill, there is a charge of $5.00 for an aspirin that was delivered to the patient in day X.
The big question Leonel, Tidodo and others are asking, how in the hell a lousy aspirin costs $5.00!
The answer is: Don't look at the aspirin only.
Just imaging that the doctor has to write a prescription,
the nurse has to send a request to the pharmacy,
the pharmacist has to remove the aspirin from the shield and update his inventory,
the nurse has to go back to pick up the order and give it to the patient.

How much this whole activity cost? Not the aspirin alone, but the whole process to deliver it. You figure it out!! This is how they figure out the over $1 billion to activities related to Haiti, and not economic development alone.

If you are building a half million dollars house, and you ask the contractor to show you a detailed cost for the construction, I bet he will find a way to give you one.
We Haitians think that Haiti should be a bucket, and all the money that is coming in from outside should stay in.
But the IC is looking at Haiti as a bucket full of holes in it, and became a strainer (yon paswa””) where nothing stays..
We need to have good governance in order to tackle those problems.

Where is the money?? Leonel and elatrye probably figured out by now!!
Gelin wrote: [quote]Don't give me a fish every once in a while. Just stop disturbing the waters and I'll catch my own fish. I know how to catch and I know what kind of fish I want. [/quote]
Guy replied: [quote]Great thought, Gelin! I really like it and I think it applies well to Haiti's situation.[/quote]
This is our problem; we think that we have the solution to solve Haiti's problems.
Gelin you don't want a fish once in a while! But you want them to stop disturbing the waters and you know how to catch your own fish, and you know what kind of fish you want!

Let me tell you something. They own the waters, and they can disturb it at anytime.
They have scuba divers at the bottom who decides what kind of fish to give you, and when to hook it up to your fishing rod.
You knowing how to fish, and what kind of fish you want is simply an illusion!


Michel :D

Anacaona_

Post by Anacaona_ » Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:08 pm

In responding to Gelin's statement about letting Haiti catching her own fish, Michel wrote: [quote]This is our problem; we think that we have the solution to solve Haiti's problems. [/quote]

Michel, I have on question for you. If you don't think that we, Haitians, have the solution to Haiti's problem, who do you think do?

Michel, Maybe you are the one dreaming!

Anacaona!

Tidodo_

Post by Tidodo_ » Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:55 pm

[quote]Let's just assume that between 2004 to present (2006), the International Community (UN, OAS etc...), and other separate international organizations spent over $1 billion in activities related to Haiti.

Not all the money went to economic development projects. Major parts of it went to security activities, the environment, social and political activities, and above all, overhead costs.
Note that overhead cost to economic development of a poor country like Haiti is a major problem that needs to be debated soon by the new government.

Leonel is asking; where is the money, if you could give more details…
I can not give you a laundry list of every single penny spent in different projects in Haiti, but I can illustrate how the costs spent are being tabulated in financial term and allocated to come up to a figure over $1 billion.
I will take one example and you could figure it out how it trickles down to over $1 billion.
Let's imagine that Haiti is a sick patient laid in bed at a hospital, and the international Community is paying the bill.
Let's add that they own also the hospital. [/quote]

Michel,

I am sorry, but I don't like to deal with hypotheticals like that. You said they spent $1 billion between whatever period of time. It's either you know how they spent it or you don't. We do know that they did not spend it on improving the quality of life in Haiti, given the sorry state of things there now compared to when they invaded the country. We also know, even though we don't have the exact number, they spent a lot of money on keeping foreign troops in Haiti through buying equipment, paying the soldiers, maintaining them in the country etc. So, it is reasonable to deduce that the money went the only place we know for sure they spent money on, that is their people. Thus, your hypothetical exercise is useless and uninformative.

And, by the way, Gelin's response was perfect. The debate of the past ten years has been whether foreign interference with Haitian affairs did more damage than corrupt Haitian politicians did. Few countries only, like Haiti, whether by bad behaviour or weakness, allowed such disruptive interferences.

J-M.

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:35 pm

[quote]Let me tell you something. They own the waters, and they can disturb it at anytime...[/quote]
Really? I will not answer you...

gelin

Michel Nau_

Post by Michel Nau_ » Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:27 pm

Leonel wrote:[quote] I am sorry, but I don't like to deal with hypotheticals like that. You said they spent $1 billion between whatever period of time. It's either you know how they spent it or you don't. Thus, your hypothetical exercise is useless and uninformative. [/quote]
Tidodo, I used a hypothesis and Socratic approaches to make the explanation as simple as possible and hoping that everybody could take a shot at it.
The International Community has a budget relative to activities in Haiti. You are asking me either I know how they spent it or I don't.
This is how they keep track of their money that they are spending on Haiti.
For example:
When they send consultants to do a survey in Haiti, it's on their record as an expense.
When they do economic, social, and politic activities in Haiti, it's on their record as an expense.
When they buy equipment, pay soldiers, maintain troops in Haiti, it's on their record as an expense.
When they send troops to remove our government from power for bad governance, it's on their record as an expense.
They will make us pay for our own shortfall.
Everything is on their record!!
We Haitians don't see the money because we are acting like Diogenes with a lantern looking for results.
Tidodo wrote: [quote]And, by the way, Gelin's response was perfect. Gelin said that he doesn't want a fish once in a while! But he wants them to stop disturbing the waters and he knows how to catch his own fish, and he knows what kind of fish he wants! [/quote]
Gelin even tough you think that you know how to fish let me tell you something. They own the fishery, and they have scuba divers at the bottom who will decide what kind of fish to hook, and when to hook it up to your fishing rod.

They don't let you decide what kind of fish you want; they decide what kind of fish you need. :cry: :cry:

Anacaona, the situation is not hopeless; let's just hope that the new government, LESPWA lives up to its name. :wink: :wink:

Have a nice weekend everybody!!

Michel :D

User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2153
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:03 pm

Post by admin » Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:10 am

[quote] They already pumped more than $1 billion,[/quote]
[quote] Let's just assume that between 2004 to present (2006), the International Community (UN, OAS etc...), and other separate international organizations spent over $1 billion[/quote]
While we're at it, let's also assume that the moon is made of green cheese and that every zonbi/lougawou/galipòt story that we've heard in Haiti is true. We may then proceed to Michel's Fish Market, where we will be told exactly what fish to eat on any given day, prepackaged with a $5.00 aspirin tablet (just in case the fish makes us sick).

And, by the way, we must also assume that there is no alternative. Any other proposal may happen only "in your dream" (selon levanjil Michel Nau, nenpòt ki chapit, nenpòt ki vèsè).

Let's assume, Michel. Let's ass-u-me, making an ass of u and me. Or let's put our thinking cap on and work on figuring out what it takes to avoid accepting that package of diseased fish and aspirin, while singing "IN GOD WE TRUST". Have you come to realize, by the way, that GOD stands for Good Old Dollar? That is indeed the whole basis of faith of those merchants who, according to your gospel, own the fisheries.

Keep on peddling Washington's line of naked imperialism, Michel!! You claim that they own the fisheries, and we are to believe in the clear Manifest Destiny (the will of GOD) that they also own everything else in the Americas, down to the guano of Navassa Island. It is also quite clear that they also own your heart and mind.

The way I see it, however, the Emperor's ass is in the air right now, and we should not waste a moment to push for a self-determining Haiti, that is for our right to fish from whatever fisheries we like and to determine for ourselves what our diet should consist of. By the time the Emperor covers his ass, it may be too late for him or it may be too late for us. Let's seize the moment.

Tidodo_

Post by Tidodo_ » Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:39 am

[quote]Thirdly, what is known is that the Latortue Gvt. has squandered between 500 to 600 million dollars, just like that[/quote]

Serge,

I am curious what that enormous amount money, for Haiti, was used for? Also, was it a loan or grant? The primary reason is that Latortue has nothing to show for it.

Jean-Marie

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:25 am

[quote]...Gelin even tough you think that you know how to fish let me tell you something. They own the fishery, and they have scuba divers at the bottom who will decide what kind of fish to hook, and when to hook it up to your fishing rod. [/quote]
Michel, you never said who THEY are but keep using the term over and over. When I modified the old saying, I had no particular group in mind. The way I put it, Haiti can catch its own fish if the waters are not disturbed by anyone. Then, you came up with THEY as being the omnipotent owners of the waters. Be clearer if possible by saying who you think THEY really are.

A note for history...

Napoléon Bonaparte THOUGHT he owned Saint-Domingue until Dessalines and Co. killed Saint-Domingue to give birth to Haiti....

France belongs to the French, America to Americans, Haiti to Haitians, The Dominican Republic to Dominicans, Germany to Germans, Canada to Canadians, Mexico to Mexicans, and the list goes on...

There is a clear difference between control and ownership. Ownership is permanent, control/occupation is temporary. You can control or occupy something or a space without being the owner.

gelin

Post Reply