SOVEREIGNTY OR SECURITY?

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Leonel JB

SOVEREIGNTY OR SECURITY?

Post by Leonel JB » Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:34 am

With violence/kidnapping/corruption which had been escalating more than anything else. I was wondering if We have to really stay focus on Sovereignty?
We have a corrupted Police Force. We can not deny the ineffectiveness of the Law enforcers ( corrupted Judges and Police officers). Even with the help of about 9000 soldiers plus the HPN, insecurity can not be controlled.
The insecurity is pushing everything else in a backburner. It is working hands in hands with any other program for Haiti's development. How do we go about the Insecurity? Can we do it ourselves or more UN Troups are required?
Nowadays, I am wondering if there was any such word like Sovereignty in Haiti. We've been helped, arranged and rearranged by Foreign Forces. Governments had been exiled and directed by other Countries. At last, We depend on Foreign Aids for everything.
How Do You feel if Twenty Five or Thirty thousand soldiers of UN woul
d handle the Security and training for Another non-corrupted Police Force? How about, getting experts from other countries in our State Administrations? Cause, it seems like we showed our weakness in administrating our offices without any sign of Corruptions. For instance, a Director of Contribution or Teleco is only there to be rich (with a salary of 100k)! Noone can audit these Organizations or Institutions. Any Chief is Above the Law!
I know that Tout rEg gen eksepsyon. But, it is too common for People to steal from Public Funds and do not pay the consequences...
From Duvalier to Latortue, we only know deception. People stealing from left to right.
How Do We break this cycle, when it is the only behavior we've been witnessing?
Anyway, I would like to hear from a lot of You on this Topic. Remember, the Focus is on Sovereignty or Security...
L'union fait la Force.
leonel

Gelin_

Re: SOVEREIGNTY OR SECURITY?

Post by Gelin_ » Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:44 am

[quote]...How Do We break this cycle, when it is the only behavior we've been witnessing?[/quote]

The cycle can be broken only when/if the nation becomes stable and can move from one elected government to the next. Without that stability it's impossible to implement durable change or to make plan for development or to even manage what's left from our natural resources and the environment. Now, I am talking about the nation. But if Haiti ceases to exist as a nation, then whoever comes can decide to apply the law or not...

gelin

Leonel JB

Post by Leonel JB » Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:35 pm

I am not sure that I understand what is non-sense?
We have a Country with problems. We only had Enkapab as Presidents or in offices!
I don't wanna spend hours or wasting hours on White Supremacists. It's not gonna solve anything. From over a Century, haiti never known what is called " Independence ". And it is one of the reasons that a lot of Us are living in THe White Supremacist World.
I am not sure I can say if Jaf is upset or not. If He is, Tough luck! That is a sign of real weakness which I would doubt otherwise. Anyway, there is no specialist in this field. We all are learning everyday. We can have questions and debates without making it too personal. For, we are different in various ways.
Now, I can not deny the problems actual. But, we can not pretend that Haiti was doing so well. We can not even pretend that we were Independent. We have about a thousand Political prisonners whom are at the US mercy... How do we change all
of that?
We are waiting for an election which depends of the US government. A potential candidate was in jail for no apparent crimes committed. I think what one would call senses would show that there isn't and there was no Sovereignty! From X, Y, Z'government, almost everything was controlled by Foreign Countries.
In 94, Aristide returned in power with the help of Foreign Armies. In 2004, he was kidnapped by the same Foreign Forces. And guess what, Nothing You and I could do about it.
We are in a very serious position. The way things are presently, if we don't find a solution quickly. WE still are going back to square 0. We both are going to be sore losers after being beaten once more.
Barking at the wrong tree wouldn't help either. Cause, we do not have autonomy.
Vle pa vle, antEman pou katrE.
SouverEnnte se pase senp sijE de E.
L'union fait la force
leonel

Leonel JB

Post by Leonel JB » Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:31 am

Well Jaf, interestingly enough, I am waisting time asking questions. While you are wasting time answering. Non-sense is Relative. Non-sense to you but plenty of senses to Some.
If I try to analyzing Who really is wasting time?? That would have been too personal...
Besides, we are our own Self. I can not be reincarnated into Jaf and vice versa. I can not waste time in order things while some are doing it in my opinion. An guess what, Who is living in Reality?
Nou mEt leve kO-n frape'l atE, Meriken ap toujou deside sou destine Ayisyen yo an Ayiti. As stated before, We were and defenseless about it.
There is a big difference between Dreams, Reality and Illusions! Reality shows me that for over a Century, We've lost our Sovereignty. It is Sad, bitter and Ugly. What will We do about it?
Talk, talk and more talk won't do the job! Barking at the wrong tree won't do it either! And we can not fool ourself showing that we care so much
about Site SolEy or BElE. I would challenge anyone who cares to give his her two year-salary for the development of these areas. I bet you I would hear anything from the Self-proclaimed Poor-People-Lovers or SOcialists.
La mayOt m-pa pE-w, se moun ou ye
men anpil chay pa lou
leonel

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Post by admin » Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:28 am

This seems to me like a vanity fight between two well-meaning friends, the sort of which, unfortunately, is magnified at the national level between groups like Haiti Progres and Batay Ouvriye, CHAN and PAPDA, elatriye. One only sees the nonsense in what the other is doing. The thief, meanwhile, is taking his time, plundering all the jewels in sight, in a confident and leisurely manner, reassured that no action will ever be taken to stop him. Then, he can disappear in plain daylight, sobbing hypocritically with all the bystanders about where all the jewels have gone.

Mwen pap di plis, paske apre sa tout moun a tonbe sou mwen. Se konsa sa toujou fèt. Except... about that one or two-year salary challenge. More people have taken it than you would care to know, Leonel. And given even much more than that... Please don't minimize their sacrifices and please continue to promote solidarity, as you usually do.

Some people overtly profes
s optimism, but make pessimism an integral part of their political action. Others sound pessimistic, but work with the ideals of an optimist. Life is a complicated thing. I have never quite understood it.

Lasting peace can only be achieved through self-determination.

Peace.

Michel Nau_

Post by Michel Nau_ » Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:37 pm

Leonel my friend I have to agree with you, because you are absolutely right.
Sovereignty or Security, what would we rather have?
First let's talk about sovereignty.
What is sovereignty?
Can we touch it, can we feel it and who are benefiting from it?
Is it real in a global economy? Dans un monde sans fontiere?
When sovereignty is functioning and when sovereignty is violated?
Can our leaders guaranty our sovereignty, or do we really need it to be a functioning country?

Aristide came back with 20,000 US soldiers landing in Dessalines and Petion's soil.
Was it a violation of our sovereignty?

Aristide bought lot of rice from Jesse Helm's State. Was it a violation of labor right of our poor paysans from Latibonite? Was it a violation of their sovereignty?

On the name of sovereignty, Aristide refused to privatize the Teleco Co., but under the table, and without the Parliamen
t's approval, he subcontracted the Teleco Co. to a foreign Company and used the profit as he wished.
Was it a lack of transparency and violation of our sovereignty?

They came back a few years later to pack, ship Aristide and his family to another country.
Was it a violation of our sovereignty?

Foe nationalists are talking about freedom and sovereignty, and blan violating our SOVEREIGNTY while the people are being kidnap, rape, and massacre in the streets because of lack of SECURITY.

Let's stop acting like kids on a kindergarten playground and face REALITY!!.

I believe that calling Leonel's question non-sense is not “nice” and I am sure that Jaf did not mean to say that.
As Gelin said: Until we have a government who can protect its people from killing each other our “sovereignty will be violated.

We just need to cut the BS, and be real!
Don't tell us that the blan make us do it. This is an
insult to our intelligent.

If you think that Haitian people give a shit about something [sovereignty] that they can not see or feel or make their life better, while they are being kidnap, rap, and murder by their own brothers, go to the street and ask them what they would rather have, Sovereignty or Security?

That is Leonel's question, and calling it “non-sense” is “une fuite en avant”.

Jaf wrote:[quote] If I am in my house having a meal with my family and a Zenglendo enters the house and tells me that I have to chose between saving my daughter's life or my son's life. The only answer I can give to him is that none of their lives belong to him.[/quote]
This answer is too easy because both are your kids, and someone has to die!!

You should have said to the Zenglendo save them and take my life instead!

Let's put you in the picture. If you were in your house having a meal with your wife and a Zenglendo enters the hou
se and tells you that you have to choose between you being shafted or your wife?
Not because he is a homo, but because he wants to test if you would be ready to sacrifice your manhood, your prestige as a man, your self-esteem to protect what should be precious to you as a leader.

Pafwa fok nou gen kouraj pou nou bouche nin nou pou nou bouwe dlo santi a.
Toussaint L'Ouverture te mete bel iniform panyol, angle, e franse sou li, nou paske misiye te remin moun sa yo, min paske li te konnin we pa we fok li fe la derniye sou yo.

An nou kinbe kat nou nan min nou pou nou sa fe la derniye sou moun so yo, e sispand joure kamarad nou yo kap lite memm jan avek nou. Sispan di ke sa yap di yo pa fe sans ou biyen ke se tenten yap di. Pafwa mwen kap konpran ke nou estomake avek nove bagay kap pase nan peyi dAyiti, min nou pa bezwen lage chaj la sou do kamarad nou yo.

Yon sel nou feb, Ansanb nou fo, Ansanb ansanb nou se Ayiti!!

Michel

Michel Nau_

Post by Michel Nau_ » Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:39 pm

Nou memm tou nou pa gen tan pou'n pedi avek fo nasiyonalist kap itilize mise e soufrans peyi d'Ayiti kom'm tranplin pou yo regle zafe pa yo e zafe lot moun.

Nou we jwet la kle kouniyen an la.
Le w ap pale:
10% pou Ayiti.
30% pou tet pa w
60% pou blan leftis aktivis w yo.

Le jou zafe pep Ayisiyen vin'n miyo, w e lot konpayel w yo pap gen bouch pou pale anko!!

You will be out of business!!

Leonel JB

Post by Leonel JB » Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:41 pm

Mesye, daprE sa-m tande, nEg loni yo la pou o-mwen dizan...
Mwen pa konn si se vre?
Kidonk lE mwen parEt ak SoverEnte-a. Se pa nan lib m-ap pale. Mwen tande on pakEt moun ki reziye yo. E ki fE sans, paske nou gen kEk tan ke nou pa gen sa yo rele SouverEnte a.
Desizyon ap pran adwat agoch sou pEp la depui lontan. Kounye-a se pi rEd. mwen menm, mwen pa wE kijan nou pwa'l sOti nan eto sa'a. Kidonk, fO nou deal ak reyalite a.
I wish that I could do something. But, unfortunately, I am powerless. La raison du plus fort est toujours la meilleure.
LE se vwazen k-ap met manje nan bouch ou, ou oblije reziye'w ak tout sa'k pase.
La vi'a di pou malere lakay. Esperons ke peyi'a a mache nan yon bon direksyon. Nou gen kEK tan se ri zOt ap ri nou.
By the way, Michel, se pa poutET ou dakO avE'm non. Men, mwen wE ke lE ou pran san'w. Ou vinn ak kEk bon ti bEt.
Apa de sa, mwen pa gen anyen ak Jaf. Mwen pat dakO ak jan li aproche da
prE mwen menm on reyalite ki si pwOch. Mwen parEt ak keksyon ke de twa gwo zotobre kase on ti moso banmwen. Kidonk, mwen reflechi epi mwen mande tEt mwen eske mwen ka ap rete nan kozman SouverEnte ki pa ekziste depi meriken pran plas li nan mond nan. Tout kote enfliyanse pa gwo mesye sa yo. Nou wE tout enjistis nan mond nan ak Ayiti. Mesye yo pa briding menm. Paske, se yo kan mennen. Antouka, ann ret tann, sak pwal pase semEnn pwochEnn. PetE nan reyinyon semEnn pwochEnn nan, nEg ki pou kontan a kontan, sak pou fache a fache. AprE rezilta eleksyon an...
Kote Jean-marie, mwen pa tande'l menm?
Men anpil, chay pa lou
leonel

Leonel JB

Post by Leonel JB » Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:08 am

Jaf mwen dakO avE'w, ke nEg yo catalize ensekirite a. Men, gen yon bagay ki klE. SE ke ensekirite'a ekziste. E pou nou konbat li, mwen panse ke fO nou ta gen on fOs de 25 mil moun ame ki respekte dwa zimen. Kote nou pwal jwen'n fOs sa'a? Kote nou pwal jwen zam pou fOs sa'a? Kijan nou pwal finanse fOs sa'a? Eske nou pwal tounen ak lame kraze zo ke nou te genyen-an?
Kidonk, se pa on ti bagay ki fasil lE on moun ou pa gen kOb ak estrikti pou-w dirije on peyi...
Depi 1915, apre envasyon meriken an, Ayiti ap viv nan yon fo SouverEnte. Kote se kolon yo ki deside pou nou. Mwen pa sonje si gen lOt prezidan avan Titid, men se sEl moun ke pEp Ayisyen te mete sou pouvwa. An 91, fOs eksteryE yo mete'l deyO. Apre anpil chire pit, yo deside voye'l ak lEd marinn. LE li rive, menm kOb pou'l peye ou dimwen, bidjE peyi'a se lOt bO ki fE'l. Kote souverEnte'a la?
Eske on moun reyelman panse ke nEg yo pwa'l kite nenpOT moun dirije san yomenm?


Mesye yo deja gen plan pou Ayiti (the other State)...
Peace!
leonel

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:56 am

[quote]...As Gelin said: Until we have a government who can protect its people from killing each other our “sovereignty will be violated. [/quote]
Are you quoting or paraphrasing?

gelin

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