Aristide: A Debate!

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Tayi
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Location: Madian, Petite Rivière de Nippes, Haiti
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Aristide: A Debate!

Post by Tayi » Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:20 pm

I've been wanting to do this for a while. I think I am speaking for many other young (and not so young) Haitians living abroad and even in Haiti who really would like to get a better understanding of Aristide (among many other figures and events). There is so much we hear, it is difficult to sort through all the information. Thankfully, we have some very well-informed friends here that can help us get to the bottom of it. In order to focus the discussion, I'd like have a format of short debates where at least two sides would present arguments with facts to support them. In order to make this discussion more useful, it is good to break it down into separate questions that pertain to the man and his role in Haiti. Perhaps the first thing we can do is lay out the different questions, and then maybe Guy (or I) could prepare different threads to debate the different questions.

Suggested questions (please add to the list):
1. Did power corrupt him into a different man from the one that the masses elected in his first term?
2. Dissolution of the Haitian Army: Good or bad?
3. Did Aristide arm the chimès?--->4. Good thing or bad?
5. Aristide's second term departure: Kidnapping or voluntary?
6. Aristide's second term departure: Good or bad (irrespective of resolution of #5)
7. Aristide's net effect on the country: good or bad?
8. Should Aristide return to Haiti? In what capacity?

What do you think?

Tayi

Tayi
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:44 pm
Location: Madian, Petite Rivière de Nippes, Haiti
Contact:

Post by Tayi » Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:33 pm

Perhaps we can start by asking who would be willing to represent either side of any of the questions. When we get at least two different people that will do the opposite sides we can start a new thread for that question.

Tayi

Shelony
Posts: 86
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:37 pm

Post by Shelony » Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:40 pm

Hi Tayi,
I'll start with the simplest one in my view, that is # 2. I believe the dissolution was good. Why?
-cost a lot of money that we did not have
-was not worth anything (could not protect the country from enemies)
-Caused a lot of instability (could argue that we are still unstable, but less coup d'etat now than before its dissolution)
-killed too many haitians

#5: I believe it was a kidnapping but that is based on no more than faith as I have no proof but can still argue why I believe so.
#6: I think bad, I will come back with reasons
#3: I really can't say and so can't discuss #4 either
#1, 7 & 8, I promise to come back as to me they are more complex and far from being black or white and require more time for a good discussions. Just to give a clue on what I think, the net effect does not solely depend on who he was or is or the way he governed but is intrinsically linked to the environment (national and international), including the people he had to interact with. I'll come back with details.

Shelony

jafrikayiti
Posts: 218
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:16 pm

Post by jafrikayiti » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:54 pm

Onè konpatriyot,

Tankou mwen te pwomèt Tayi, m ap vin fè 2 kout kiyè nan diskisyon sa a. Men, sezon an difisil anpil pou mwen paske m ap demele m mete pwochen CD Lafimen an nan lari talè konsa.

Osijè kesyon Tayi yo, men repons rapid mwen ka bay, annatandan plis diskisyon:

1. Did power corrupt him into a different man from the one that the masses elected in his first term?

To me there are several parts to this question which may need to be adressed separately:

1a - did power corrupt him?
More than likely yes! In fact, i have yet to meet a politician that power did not corrupt.

1b - did he turn into a different person than the one the masses elected in his first term?
I don't think so, if the assumption is that the people got something other than what they bargained for. The Haitian population had enough time to get to know who JBA was and when they looked at the playing field, he was deemed to be their best choice. In fact, I believe a great part of the reason he is still in exile is that the objective facts suggest that the population would still rather vote for him than the available "leaders" that the neo-colonial powers would prefer to have in power in Haiti. So, they are not taking chances and decide to keep him as far away as possible. (Needless to say, in this world of bandit diplomacy, legality means zilch!)


2. Dissolution of the Haitian Army: Good or bad?

There never was a Haitian army per se. We had a CIA criminal gang operating in Haiti, whose only enemy was the Haitian people. The dissolution of that gang was the best thing JBA did for the Nation.

3. Did Aristide arm the chimès?--->4. Good thing or bad?

I don't accept the existence of àn entity called "chimè". This is a racist, classist, derogatory term invented to trivialize the legitimate grievances of the wretched of the earth. Before, during and after Aristide's term in office we had urban violence. During the dictatorship of François Duvalier, there was a special gang named the VSN created with support from the U.S. government to crush Duvalier's opponents. After, the transition to Jean-Claude, the Leopards corps was put in place - again with U.S. support. They massacred scores of Haitians....that was an organized gang. We had no such thing in what is being called "chimè". This term mainly served to scapegoat the urban poor for the culture of violence that emerged from the dissolution of the dictatorship, the dissolution of the repressive army...the general breakdown of law and order....which actually involved many players that stem from various parts of Haitian society - not just the urban poor.

5. Aristide's second term departure: Kidnapping or voluntary?

Obviously is was involuntary. You can play with words and argue it was not "kidnapping" as Colin Powell or Bill Clinton would define the word (as you know our American friends have a funny way of defining words - even "is"). But, there has now been too many books written, too many documentaries produced where the evidence clearly points to FRENCH -U.S AND CANADIAN complicity with the most retrograde forces in Haiti to conduct the 2004 coup. To question whether Aristide's departure was voluntary is like asking whether JFK committed suicide.

6. Aristide's second term departure: Good or bad? (irrespective of resolution of #5)

Would it be good or bad if, for instance, Robert Mugabe, Obansanjo and Kaddafi organized to have the Queen of England flown in an overnight flight to Alaska and then made every effort to stop her from returning home?

7. Aristide's net effect on the country: good or bad?

Time will tell.... but as Shelony said, this is a complex issue considering that one individual does not impact a Nation in isolation....

8. Should Aristide return to Haiti? In what capacity?

In #6, should the British Queen be allowed to return home?

May 2010 be a blessed one for all - including for Elizabeth I, II, III, IV, V, Tidid, Kaddafi elatriye :o)

jafrikayiti
Posts: 218
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:16 pm

Post by jafrikayiti » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:01 pm

I meant to say: SINCE 1915, there never was a "Haitian" army per se.

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