All charges dropped against former Haitian Prime Minister Yvon Neptune

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All charges dropped against former Haitian Prime Minister Yvon Neptune

Post by Guysanto » Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:09 pm

All charges dropped against former Haitian prime minister
by Hastings Human Rights Project for Haiti —
Fri Apr 20 18:27:06 2007
brianhaiti@aol.com (541) 432 0597

Contacts:
Brian Concannon, IJDH.org, (541) 432-0597, brianhaiti@aol.com
Jens Iverson, HastingsHumanRights.org, (347) 200-1449, iverson j@uchastings.edu
Mario Joseph, BAI, 011-509-221-6200, mariohaiti@aol.com

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Friday, April 20, 2007

ALL CHARGES DROPPED AGAINST FORMER HAITIAN PRIME MINISTER TWO YEARS AFTER LAW STUDENTS AND ATTORNEYS LODGE COMPLAINT WITH INTERNATIONAL COMMISSION

Many political prisoners continue to suffer in dismal prison conditions.

San Francisco, CA: April 20, 2007. After years of illegal imprisonment and unsubstantiated charges, former Haitian Prime Minister Yvon Neptune is a free man. A Haitian appeals court has ruled that all charges against him must be dropped, due to the unconstitutional manner in which they were filed. Charges against former Minister of the Interior Jocelerme Privert were also dropped.

“While Neptune is free, many others are not,” stated University of California Hastings law student Jens Iverson. “Neptune's release is a case study in how international pressure and attention can help those caught in a dysfunctional justice system, where many prisoners are simply forgotten and left to rot.” U.C. Hastings Professor Naomi Roht-Arriaza stated that “the partnership between renowned Haitian attorneys such as Mario Joseph, human rights experts and willing law students has proven to be truly effective. But much remains to be done.”

On April 20, 2005, law students at the University of California, Hastings, along with Haitian and U.S. attorneys filed a petition with the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights (IACHR) on behalf of Neptune. Neptune had been illegally imprisoned since June 2004. The law students' petition requested immediate action on the part of the Commission to prevent further endangerment of Mr. Neptune's life. In addition to calling for the former Prime Minister's immediate release from arbitrary detention, the petition asked for international oversight and supervision of Haitian prisons in order to improve their dismal conditions.

Mr. Neptune's continued detention placed his life in substantial danger. He survived at least two assassination attempts, as well as a prison massacre and a prison breakout since his arrest. While the Yvon Neptune was eventually released from prison due to the worldwide outcry at his illegal imprisonment, charges remained lodged against him.

The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights (IAHCR) decided in November 2005 to declare the present case for Yvon Neptune admissible with respect to Articles 5, 7, 8, and 25.1 of the American Convention and to proceed with the examination of the merits of the case.

In November 2006, at the request of the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights (IAHCR), the Bureau des Advocats Internationaux, the Institute for Justice for Democracy in Haiti, and the Hastings Human Rights Project for Haiti, submitted their support for referral of the case to the Inter-American Court of Human Rights.

“The Appeals Court victory is not the victory that Mr. Neptune and his co-defendants deserve, and the prosecutor had recommended, because it does not recognize the absence of evidence against them,” explains Brian Concannon of the Institute of Justice and Democracy in Haiti, a co-filer of the complaint before the Inter-American Commission that brought Neptune's plight to worldwide attention. “But it is a victory, because it ends almost three years of legal struggle, including over two dangerous years in prison for Mr. Neptune and Mr. Privert. Credit is due Mario Joseph and his legal team at the Bureau des Avocats Internationaux, but the lawyers never would have had their day in court without the persistent pressure applied from outside Haiti.”

The IACHR is conducting an on-site visit to Haiti from April 16-20, 2007 to observe the human rights situation. The IACHR is charged by the Organization of American States (OAS) to examine and report on human rights in the western hemisphere. The Commission investigates claims of human rights violations, makes recommendations to governments, and refers cases to the Inter-American Court of Human Rights. The Commission investigated the violations of Neptune's rights and referred the case to the Court. That case will remain active due to the suffering Neptune endured and the overriding concerns regarding Haiti's defective justice system.


#####

For additional information or a copy of the petition, please visit IJDH.org, HastingsHumanRights.org or contact:
Brian Concannon, IJDH, (541) 432-0597, brianhaiti@aol.com
Jens Iverson, HastingsHumanRights.org, (347) 200-1449, Iverson j@uchastings.edu
Mario Joseph, BAI, 011-509-221-6200, mariohaiti@aol.com

Notes to the editor:
The original petition was filed by the Hastings Human Rights Project for Haiti (HHRPH) in conjunction with attorneys from the Institute for Justice and Democracy in Haiti (IJDH) and Bureau des Avocats Internationaux. (BAI).

Hastings Human Rights Project for Haiti (HHRPH) was created in 2004 by students and faculty at the University of California, Hastings College of the Law to provide students with practical experience in human rights litigation. First, second, and third year law students work with human rights attorneys and Hastings faculty advisors to bring human rights cases before international courts. It is currently producing a report on MINUSTAH, the peacekeeping force in Haiti.

The Institute for Justice & Democracy in Haiti (IJDH) works with the people of Haiti in their non-violent struggle for the return and consolidation of constitutional democracy, justice and human rights, by distributing objective information on human rights conditions in Haiti, pursuing legal cases, and cooperating with human rights and solidarity groups in Haiti and abroad.

The Bureau des Avocats Internationaux (BAI) represents victims of human rights violations in Haitian courts. The BAI's most successful case to date is the 2002 trial of the Raboteau massacre, which led to the convictions of fifty-three men, including the top military and paramilitary leaders of the 1991-1994 dictatorship. BAI was founded in 1995 and has its main office in Port-au-Prince, Haiti.

www.HastingsHumanRights.org

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Post by Guysanto » Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:24 pm

Spurious charges were brought against Prime Minister Yvon Neptune, and most of us knew they could not stick in anything but a kangaroo's court. Yet Yvon Neptune was forced to endure the indignation of being treated as a mass murderer, based on unproven allegations, whereas U.S. sponsored Prime Minister Gérard Latortue could do no wrong because of friends in the Bush White House.

De pwa de mezi. Se Lafontèn ki te gen rezon...

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Le président de la Cour d'Appel des Gonaives tué dans un accident...

Post by Frantz » Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:30 pm

Haiti-Justice-Décès

Le président de la Cour d'Appel des Gonaives tué dans un accident
Le juge Hugues Saint-Pierre a été violemment heurté par un véhicule à Port-au-Prince où devait être rendu l'arrêt définitif sur le dossier du massacre de La Scierie

mardi 24 avril 2007,

Radio Kiskeya



Le président de la Cour d'Appel des Gonaives (171 km au nord de Port-au-Prince), Me Hugues Saint-Pierre, est décédé dans la nuit de lundi à mardi à la suite d'un accident de la circulation survenu à Port-au-Prince, a appris Radio Kiskeya.

Le magistrat, qui descendait lundi en début de soirée d'un autobus de passagers à la gare routière des Gonaives (nord de la capitale), a été renversé par un autre véhicule, selon ses proches. Transporté dans un hôpital de Delmas (est), il n'a pas survécu aux graves traumatismes subis alors qu'il ne souffrait apparemment d'aucune blessure.

En venant à la capitale, Me Saint-Pierre répondait à une invitation des autorités judiciaires qui s'apprêtaient à rendre un arrêt définitif sur le dossier du massacre de La Scirie. Dans ce quartier de la ville de St-Marc (Artibonite, nord), une cinquantaine de personnes réputées proches de l'opposition avaient été exécutées en février 2004, peu avant la chute de Jean-Bertrand Aristide.

La Cour d'Appel des Gonaives avait rendu, l'année dernière, un arrêt très controversé favorable à deux hauts dirigeants du régime Lavalas, l'ancien Premier ministre Yvon Neptune et l'ex-ministre de l'intérieur, Jocelerme Privert. Les deux hommes et plusieurs autres inculpés dans l'affaire La Scirie avaient été libérés sans le moindre procès.

La disparition brutale du juge Hugues Saint-Pierre a provoqué une vive émotion mardi matin aux Gonaives où il était également professeur de droit. La nouvelle a rapidement fait le tour de la ville et n'a cessé depuis de susciter des commentaires.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Post by Michel Nau » Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:41 pm

Guy ekri: [quote]De pwa de mezi. Se Lafontèn ki te gen rezon...[/quote] E tout moun la scierie yo ki mouri yo!!
Peson pap di 2 mo pou yo?
Se shien ke yo ye? Paske se pa Lavalas ke yo teye. Min 2 pwa e 2 mezi!!
[quote]Premier ministre Yvon Neptune et l'ex-ministre de l'intérieur, Jocelerme Privert. Les deux hommes et plusieurs autres inculpés dans l'affaire La Scirie avaient été libérés sans le moindre procès.[/quote]
All charges dropped without having their day in court!!!
Se sa ke w rele jistis?? Moun mouri pakap pale!!
Jiska presan yap assasinè temouwen toujou.
[quote]Le président de la Cour d'Appel des Gonaives tué dans un accident
Le juge Hugues Saint-Pierre a été violemment heurté par un véhicule à Port-au-Prince où devait être rendu l'arrêt définitif sur le dossier du massacre de La Scierie[/quote]Se yon intimidasyon total kapital. Thug, mafia. Politik sal, moun pè palè!!
Se moun sa yo kap di ke se defande de pov ke yo ye, min yo pap pe avili moun, ni touye moun pou konviksyon politik.

Court Bondyè a pa yon court kangouroo!!

Michel

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Post by Guysanto » Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:54 am

Michel, your response is so illogical, just like your unsavory (mixed, false, or non-) attribution of quotes that I had rather leave it at that than try vainly to sort them out. I normally love to discuss thoughts and ideas but yours are just a mess of accusations without any semblance of merit. What concerns me the most however is your profound indifference to respecting the 27-year-old official standards of Kreyòl (Haitian Creole) orthography on a forum that prides itself in promoting the national Haitian Language.

To all who seek guidance on Kreyòl, caveat emptor...

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Post by Michel Nau » Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:08 am

Stick to the subject my friend!

All charges dropped without their day in court!!

Ki sa w ta di si w te gen yon fanmi w ou byen yon zanmi w pami moun ki mouri yo???
W rele sa jistis??

Sou zafe kreyol la!! Lang sa se pou nou tout li ye.
Pou w e pou mwen.
Mwen konmin ke se abit kreyol ke w ye.
Wap voye kat rouj at kat jonn a dwat a goch sou terin site la.

Sa se yon fom de intimidasyon pou moun ki pale kreyol pou yo pa bay opinyon yo sou sije sa.

Mesye sa yo lage san jijman, san tribinal!!
Min sa ke yo rele 2 pwa e 2 mezi mon fre!!

Pa chanje sije a!
Kreyol pale, kreyol konprand!!

MIchel

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Post by Guysanto » Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:44 am

Michel, obviously the charges should have been properly filed in the first place. In the United States, improper filing of charges results in dismissal by a court of law all the time. I know it and you know it.

If Yvon Neptune was properly charged and imprisoned (for over two years, I think) for whatever role that he may have played in the massacre at La Scierie, then you would not have had the appearance of a political witch hunt. And if found guilty of those odious crimes, then he should be made to pay the price like any other government criminal... I have never met Mr. Neptune and I do not have any association with him whatsoever. But to stand here and to speculate about his involvement in what was hyperbolically described by some as "a genocide" without proper legal proceedings made over a period of 2 years is not my cup of tea. Without further evidence of his involvement in crime, I cannot stand as his prosecutor, even in the court of public opinion. If you can do so, yourself, please do it, right here on these pages, without attacking my lack of sensitivity to victims of a massacre in Haiti because, Michel, that is pure nonsense.

I stand on the side of social justice in Haiti, and I want all criminals, regardless of social or political class, to pay for the crimes that they commit, but the best way to do that is not through taking shortcuts or by indulging in character assassination.

As to the standards of Haitian orthography, I don't make the rules. They were made for me and you 27 years ago.

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2 pwa e 2 mezi. Nou kwe ke tout moun se moun!!

Post by Michel Nau » Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:54 pm

Guy wrote:[quote] Michel, obviously the charges should have been properly filed in the first place. In the United States, improper filing of charges results in dismissal by a court of law all the time. I know it and you know it.[/quote] W pakap mande paysan pou yo "properly file" Wap vide teknikalite sou malere sa yo toujou.
Ignorance of the law is defenseless. Sim te konnin toujou deye!!
Moun sa yo pa gen defans gwo avoka aktivis Amerikan nan lekol de dwa nan San Fransisco pou defand ka yo.
Se malere ke yo ye!! Paran moun sa yo e avoka pou defand ka yo te pe Lavalas pa asasine yo.
One should not take advantage of someone else ignorance. These poor paysans were massacred and executed because of their political belief.
[quote]le dossier du massacre de La Scirie. Dans ce quartier de la ville de St-Marc (Artibonite, nord), une cinquantaine de personnes réputées proches de l'opposition avaient été exécutées en février 2004, peu avant la chute de Jean-Bertrand Aristide.[/quote]
3 zan apre ke bagay sa finn fet, temouin ak jij ap mouri toujou.
[quote]Le magistrat, qui descendait lundi en début de soirée d'un autobus de passagers à la gare routière des Gonaives (nord de la capitale), a été renversé par un autre véhicule, selon ses proches[/quote]
Se nan « Soprano » mafia nan New Jersey ke moun we bagay konsa.
Guy wrote: [quote]I stand on the side of social justice in Haiti, and I want all criminals, regardless of social or political class, to pay for the crimes that they commit[/quote]. Bel pawol mete la Guy!!
Fraz sa chaje avek ipokrizi ladan!!!!!!!
W kwe'm kwe w?
Guy wrote: [quote]The best way to do that is not through taking shortcuts or by indulging in character assassination.[/quote] Is through what???. What is the best way?
You stopped short in your comment.
Please finish it.
Si nap pale de la jistis sosyal, an nou mete tout moun ladan san exsepsyon.
Nou tout ap binyen tou touni sou site la!!
Ki donk pa gen kashe lombrit!

Michel

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Post by Guysanto » Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:36 pm

[quote]Fraz sa chaje avek ipokrizi ladan!!!!!!!
W kwe'm kwe w?[/quote]
Well, Michel, it's a free country. Believe whatever you want to believe. It's obvious though that our conversation has outlived its usefulness. But whenever you have facts to back up your insinuations with respect to my character, feel free to expose them on this forum. Until then, have a nice day.

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Post by Tidodo » Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:56 am

[quote][quote]
Le magistrat, qui descendait lundi en début de soirée d'un autobus de passagers à la gare routière des Gonaives (nord de la capitale), a été renversé par un autre véhicule, selon ses proches [/quote]

Se nan « Soprano » mafia nan New Jersey ke moun we bagay konsa. [/quote]

Michel,

This is a low blow. I expect better from you. You were right when you made the following statement:

[quote]Stick to the subject my friend! [/quote]

But, don't be guilty of the same offense!

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Post by Guysanto » Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:02 am

Actually, Tidodo, I do not consider this a low blow. It's a "sheer fantasy" statement, and I might have thought of it too. It is indeed suspicious that a judge would have a fatal accident on his way to finalizing a high level legal case. Very suspicious. But we should always keep in mind the possibility that the accident could have happened naturally. As they often say in America, "sh.. happens". Take Governor Corzine of New Jersey for instance. He gets on his way to a highly publicized meeting at the Governor's mansion to mediate between Don Imus and the Rutgers women's basketball team. He is driven by an expert State Trooper on the Garden State Parkway, a route that he probably has taken routinely, thousands of times. However, it is later learned, they were driving at 91MPH, and the Governor of New Jersey DID NOT EVEN CARE TO WEAR A SEATBELT. Well, if you have not followed the news from New Jersey lately (and who does, other than late primary vote getters?) you can imagine the rest of what I am going to say: The Governor's car gets smacked by a pickup truck. Results: 11 broken ribs, multiple leg fractures, collapsed lungs, an absolutely terrible bloody mess! The kind you would only expect to see on the Sopranos (at least, that's my impression, because as much as I have wanted to actually see the Sopranos for the past several years, I have yet to set aside the time necessary to watch a single episode. But I swear, one day, I am going to set aside Windows on Haiti, sit down and watch the very first episode of the very first season of Sopranos, and keep watching... I love Mafia stories, as "The Godfather" is my all-time favorite movie). Anyway, the point I was making is that it appears that on that particular day, it was simply the Governor of New Jersey's dumb luck!! Which also could possibly explain what happened to that judge in Haiti. I simply do not know and I am certainly not in a position to tell.

What really does not make any sense to me is the clear insinuation that Michel makes about the reason that the judge got killed, Soprano style, in the first place. Help me make some sense of it, Tidodo. Believe me, I take no offense whatsoever at whatever reference Michel had in mind when he cited New Jersey, the state that I have lived in for the past xx years. This is just the sort of bullshit that we know a lot of Haitian men love to talk about, and I am steeped enough in my culture not to spend a second worrying about it. I have met plenty of bullshit artists in my time and Michel has been drinking the Washington D.C. Kool-Aid way too long for it not to affect his mind. But what interests me in the story is this: since the judge was apparently complicit in the dismissal of the charges against Yvon Neptune, why then would he be whacked by Yvon Neptune's "circle of friends", as Michel implied here without any doubt? In other words, the judge is on his way to help "Don Corleone", therefore (according to Michel's twisted logic) "Don Corleone" whacks him before he would have a chance to do him a favor. Wow! To tell you the truth, I think that the Sopranos are more intelligent than that. Sorry, Michel, look elsewhere than New Jersey. Such dumb decision-making only seems to happen in Washington D.C., as is pathetically the case for the past several years.

Michel has repeatedly tried to insult me throughout the thread, but when I thought he was truly at his most hilarious, that's when you saw the low blow, Tidodo. If that is the low blow, please keep them coming. We haven't had much fun on Ann Pale in a while.

And about what really caused the accident that the Governor of New Jersey was involved in, there is so much more to tell... but I'll stick to the subject.

Guy

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Post by Frantz » Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:15 am

Michel,
mwen t ap li gwo rale ke ou ak Guy t ap fe e mwen ta renmen ou bay plis esplikasyon sou sa.
Michel te mete 2 kwot sa yo : ":.....
1-"Quote:
le dossier du massacre de La Scirie. Dans ce quartier de la ville de St-Marc (Artibonite, nord), une cinquantaine de personnes réputées proches de l'opposition avaient été exécutées en février 2004, peu avant la chute de Jean-Bertrand Aristide."

2-"Quote:
Le magistrat, qui descendait lundi en début de soirée d'un autobus de passagers à la gare routière des Gonaives (nord de la capitale), a été renversé par un autre véhicule, selon ses proches "


Kesyon ke mwen gen pou wou se: Ki moun ki ekri kwot ke w mete yo? Kote sous yo? Kote ou pran yo?

Mwen li sa Guy ekri e mwen pa jwenn stetman sa yo ke ou sanble ta vle fè misye responsab. Alò, tanpri souple mete rekòd yo ajou; bay sous kwot yo byen pou tout lektè ka konnen kibò ou jwenn yo e kimoun ou enstitisyon ki reponsab yo.

Mèsi e kenbe la.
frantz

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Post by Guysanto » Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:59 am

Frantz... Stick to the subject my friend!

Michel Nau
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Anpil Presyon sou Preval/Alexis pou bay reparasyon a prizonye Lavalas yo!!

Post by Michel Nau » Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:19 pm

Guy wrote: [quote]It is indeed suspicious that a judge would have a fatal accident on his way to finalizing a high level legal case. Very suspicious. But we should always keep in mind the possibility that the accident could have happened naturally.[/quote] Mwen kwe ke yon aksidan se yon bagay ki rive san yon moun pa atand de sa. Gen ka kote ke yon aksidan natirel se vre, min si li teleguide a yon victim an patikilye, li pa yon aksidan anko, se yon krim.

Frantz, krot ke mwen bay yo se radio Metropole ou byen Kiskeya ki bay yo: [quote]Le juge Hugues Saint-Pierre a été violemment heurté par un véhicule à Port-au-Prince où devait être rendu l'arrêt définitif sur le dossier du massacre de La Scierie.[/quote] This accident was not a fender bender Guy, but a well targeted individual who had a lot to say about this dossier. Unfortunately, they silenced him for good, and at the same time sent a message to those who were ready to sing.

Guy wrote: [quote]But what interests me in the story is this: since the judge was apparently complicit in the dismissal of the charges against Yvon Neptune, why then would he be whacked by Yvon Neptune's "circle of friends", as Michel implied here without any doubt? In other words, the judge is on his way to help "Don Corleone", therefore (according to Michel's twisted logic) "Don Corleone" whacks him before he would have a chance to do him a favor. Wow![/quote] I believe that Neptune was released due to medical condition after doctors said a hunger strike had left him near death. he was released on health and humanitarian grounds and not because he was cleared of all charges.
[quote]AHP News - March 19, 2007 - English translation (Unofficial)

The BAI is determined to obtain reparations for the harm done to former Prime Minister Neptune by the Latortue government Port-au-Prince, March 20, 2007 (AHP)-

The Office of International Lawyers (BAI) reiterated Tuesday its determination to obtain enforcement of the decision of the Inter-American Court of Human Rights (IACHR), which demanded that the legitimate government of Haiti provide reparations and compensation to former Prime Minister Yvon Neptune

Yvon Neptune was imprisoned for more than two years by the de facto Boniface/Latortue regime after organizations and individuals close to that government accused him of involvement in an alleged massacre said to have perpetrated at La Scierie (St-Marc), however no compelling evidence that a massacre ever took place has been presented.

The Inter-American Court of Human Rights (IACHR), which received a complaint filed by the BAI, declared in a report last month that the rights of Mr. Neptune were indeed violated through his illegal arrest and imprisonment.

Haiti, represented by the constitutionally-elected government, has four months to respond to the decision of the Court through concrete actions consisting notably of paying reparations for the harm done to Mr. Neptune by the interim government and to resolve justice problems, particularly the matter of prolonged preventive detention.

The members of the interim government and the other sectors involved in the abuses committed against Mr. Neptune should be brought to justice, the Court declared.

The case remains before the IACHR pending follow-up action by the constitutional government, said Mario Joseph, who deplored that nothing has been done thus far by the Préval/Alexis government
toward the release of the political prisoners.

This attitude by the current government, said attorney Mario Joseph, proves that it supports all of the illegal and arbitrary acts committed under the previous government.
He asked the authorities to come to terms with the situation.[/quote]
Neg yo tande ke gen anpil lajan kap antre nan peyi a.
Kidonk yap fe anpil presyon sou Preval/Alexis pou lajan, e reparasyon.
Mesye avoka Lavalas sanble ke yo pare pou yo fe anpil presyon sou govenman Preval/Alexis e pare pou trinnin gouvenman Preval/Alexis a pou reparasyon e domaj ke govenman LaTortue a te fe Neptune e tout lot prisonye Lavalas yo.
Govenman di ke li pap bay 5 kob reparasyon ou byen dedomajman a peson. Li pito rele tout jij leta e prosekite ki okouran de dossier sa yo e reouvri tout dossier prisonye yo e rele tout jij ki konsene sou zafe sila.

Aparanan, Jij St. Pierre elimine, lot jij yo e anpil temouwen menm pe kou sourit pou yo pa mouri tout.

An konklisyon Guy, Frantz, TiDodo, e tout lot kamarad kap souiv tout evenman politik e jeu de force sa yo sou echikye peyi d'Ayiti, bagay sa yo pa gen anyen pou we avek jistis sosyal pou malere ki mouri yo! Se yon kestyon de lajan e pouvwa politik!!

Michel

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Post by Tidodo » Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:06 am

[quote]This accident was not a fender bender Guy, but a well targeted individual who had a lot to say about this dossier. Unfortunately, they silenced him for good, and at the same time sent a message to those who were ready to sing.[/quote]

Michel, while you may be right, I am not aware of any police or court finding of your assertion. You have been living in the USA for a while now, you must know, unless you have supported evidence, it is risky to be making accusations without proof. I realize it is a widespread practice in Haiti, but you know better. In my opinion, the best you could say about it, it is an allegation or suspicion. Even that, you need support from other people very close to the issues.

[quote]I believe that Neptune was released due to medical condition after doctors said a hunger strike had left him near death. he was released on health and humanitarian grounds and not because he was cleared of all charges[/quote]

You are partly right. Health and humanitarian grounds were parts of the reason. They were also the excuses for not embarrassing publicly the Haitian government more for not having a proper judicial system that could have determined, after two years of incarceration, whether he was guilty or not. The reason the health and humanitarian grounds have to be used as an excuse is because the evidence, those who accused him of guilt in this affair have, was flimsy at best, and the incarceration looked to international and objective observers more like retaliation for having cooperated with the Lavalas government. I am reproducing again with emphasys the same quote you provided to support yout point:

[quote] Yvon Neptune was imprisoned for more than two years by the de facto Boniface/Latortue regime after organizations and individuals close to that government accused him of involvement in an alleged massacre said to have perpetrated at La Scierie (St-Marc), however no compelling evidence that a massacre ever took place has been presented.[/quote]

As far as the conclusion of your post, Guy, when his emotions were tempered, already gave you the answer to that.

[quote]If Yvon Neptune was properly charged and imprisoned (for over two years, I think) for whatever role that he may have played in the massacre at La Scierie, then you would not have had the appearance of a political witch hunt. And if found guilty of those odious crimes, then he should be made to pay the price like any other government criminal... [/quote]

[quote]An konklisyon Guy, Frantz, TiDodo, e tout lot kamarad kap souiv tout evenman politik e jeu de force sa yo sou echikye peyi d'Ayiti, bagay sa yo pa gen anyen pou we avek jistis sosyal pou malere ki mouri yo! Se yon kestyon de lajan e pouvwa politik!![/quote]

Michel, your choice of adjective in, "jistis sosyal," is puzzling to me. Guy, Frantz and I fight for it all the times on this forum. You always seem to be on the opposite side of us when we are fighting for social justice.

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Post by Guysanto » Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:16 am

Michel, I am glad that you came back with a much less insulting and accusatory tone, though past experience on this forum leads me to sense that this is just temporary. Those frontal assaults on my character appear to be teleguided and they are no mere fender benders either. However, in lieu of worrying about the source of such unwarranted personal attacks and what may be going on behind the scenes, let me address your latest arguments... and deal with the next storm when it arises (like those inevitable hurricanes off the Florida coast).

[quote]Mwen kwe ke yon aksidan se yon bagay ki rive san yon moun pa atand de sa. Gen ka kote ke yon aksidan natirel se vre, min si li teleguide a yon victim an patikilye, li pa yon aksidan anko, se yon krim.[/quote]
Well, Michel, thank you for your expertise in semantics but I stated myself that the incident was very suspicious. However, in cases such as this, one should never rule out any possibility however remote, without weighing the evidence. I think that it is an unfortunate habit among my compatriots to jump from one news report to a conclusion [not just of criminal intent, but whose criminal intent]. That is done before the slightest investigation. This quick jump to damning conclusions hampers investigations and is at least part of the reason that in Haiti "l'enquête se poursuit" (the investigation continues) forever more.

Certainly we are allowed to speculate. But way too many Haitians appear bent on fudging the lines of demarcation between sheer speculation and investigative forensics.


[quote]Frantz, krot ke mwen bay yo se radio Metropole ou byen Kiskeya ki bay yo[/quote]
Michel, your quotes came directly from Frantz's previous post on this thread. The source of the news article is clearly identified as "Radio Kiskeya". You can go back and clearly see that in Frantz's original post. The problem that Frantz pointed to however was how you were switching back and forth from statements that I made to statements excerpted from the news article, without any clear indication that you were switching sources. Frantz was pointing to your problematic use of quotes, even though I have to admit that you have made a lot progress over the last year in that regard. Just try a little bit more, and everything will be fine.

[quote]This accident was not a fender bender Guy...[/quote]
That is obvious, isn't it? I never claimed that it was. The Garden State Parkway accident involving Governor Corzine was no fender bender either...

[quote]but a well targeted individual who had a lot to say about this dossier. Unfortunately, they silenced him for good, and at the same time sent a message to those who were ready to sing.[/quote]
Well, perhaps. On the other hand, this might be sheer speculation on your part. Who is "they" and who is "those"? I do not know. Do you?

It appears to me that the people who have been so vocal in prosecuting Yvon Neptune, like Samuel Madistin and Pierre Esperance, are not easily deterred, and by right they should not be. All we can ask is that prosecutions of alleged human rights violators should be exercised according to the Rule of Law, and not through taking shortcuts or by indulging in character assassination.

Was the Brazilian General driven to commit suicide by circumstances in Haiti, by pressures from the United Nations chain of command to repress popular uprisings in Cité Soleil, or by domestic troubles back home in Brazil? Or perhaps, was it made to look like a suicide after he was assassinated? All of those questions deserve answers. However, as in all other investigations and amateurishly conducted prosecutions in Haiti, speculation always runs rampant and in the end no one is ever satisfied, for lack of definitive answers.

I have often thought that in lieu of a quasi-eternal presence of a U.N. military presence in Haiti, all Haiti truly needed is a team of 20 world class unaffiliated investigators, something I am sure we have not had or have not been permitted to have in our 200-year history. They could have done us much more good than 200,000 U.N. soldiers of all stripes and colors.

[quote]I believe that Neptune was released due to medical condition after doctors said a hunger strike had left him near death. he was released on health and humanitarian grounds and not because he was cleared of all charges.[/quote]
Yes, Michel, we all know that, but you seem to forget the point of this thread as originally posted. Yvon Neptune himself had chosen to stay in Haiti and fight the carnavalesque atmosphere of guilt by political association and clear his name of grievous wrongdoing. And that is his right. Just like it is the right of any victim of any massacre in Haiti to seek redress. But once again, remember that those aims should be achieved through the Rule of Law, not through caprice or improvisation or speculation or by taking shortcuts or indulging in deliberate character assassination.

As you just mentioned, Yvon Neptune was not cleared of all charges upon his release from prison. I thought that was yesterday's news. Today's news however is that, and I quote from the Press Release which started this thread, "A Haitian appeals court has ruled that all charges against him must be dropped, due to the unconstitutional manner in which they were filed. That is precisely what I was referring to, the lack of proper judicial proceedings in Haiti (along with the botched investigations) before you started your tirade against me, accusing me bluntly of not caring about the assassinations of poor peasants in Haiti. By the way, this is the first time that I happen to see in print this particular characterization of the so-called "La Scierie massacre." It made it seem that we were somehow discussing the peasant massacres that took place in Piatre and Jean-Rabel. Whether your characterization of the victims is true or not I do not know, but it startled me that after all this time during which this event has been discussed in political terms (pro-Lavalas and anti-Lavalas gangs) that, all of a sudden, this is now framed as a question of social justice involving poor Haitian peasants. Is this a sleight of hand or a relevant argument in this case? I will leave it to the reader to decide.

[quote]An konklisyon Guy, Frantz, TiDodo, e tout lot kamarad kap souiv tout evenman politik e jeu de force sa yo sou echikye peyi d'Ayiti, bagay sa yo pa gen anyen pou we avek jistis sosyal pou malere ki mouri yo! Se yon kestyon de lajan e pouvwa politik!![/quote]
I don't know which one of us argued against those points, Michel, but to your observations I would also add that in order to fairly prosecute anyone anywhere along the social or political spectrum, you need to rely on an established Rule of Law. Any righteous person who ignores this golden principle will in the end only hurt his own cause.

Since it is extremely questionable that we ever had an established Rule of Law in Haiti, I would argue that is priority number one.

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Guysanto
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Post by Guysanto » Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:11 am

[quote]...when his emotions were tempered[/quote]
Let us agree to disagree on this point.

When I look back on this thread and read Michel's first intervention which is chock full of vicious insinuations in my regard ("w") and unspecified parties ("moun sa yo") to which he willfully associates me, I believe that I responded with a lot of restraint and I stand by my response. It only takes one clear reading of Michel's original post (let alone his subsequent ones, prior to his last) to assess whether my response was appropriate or not. You do not seem to think that it was, but I feel comfortable in leaving that matter to every reader's judgment.

[quote]Michel, your choice of adjective in, "jistis sosyal," is puzzling to me. Guy, Frantz and I fight for it all the times on this forum. You always seem to be on the opposite side of us when we are fighting for social justice.[/quote]
Actually, Tidodo, I think that this is an exaggeration. Michel Nau has many times sided with social justice causes on this forum. However, every once in a while, he seems to switch personalities and to come out, seemingly from nowhere, attacking everyone in his sight (like those Florida hurricanes I alluded to). When he does, he is quite indiscriminate in his accusations. He blows in like a storm and blows out like a storm. That is what I find puzzling. Even his Kreyol writing goes alternately from screamingly atrocious to very good (well, at least pretty good). And that too, I find puzzling. But in fairness to Michel, he has not been consistently on the side of social injustice. In fact, I would be willing to argue the opposite. Am I the Devil's advocate?

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Post by Serge » Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:55 am

Zanmi kanmarad,

Mwen swete nou tout byen. Gen kèk jou mwen te disparèt sou fowom lan, men, tankou sa kon rive , mwen te okipe anpil anpil, men map eseye reparèt la ak komantè mwen sou gwo koze ale vini sa ki tap fèt sou zafè Yvon Neptune lan. Mwen anreta, se vre, men mwsen ta renmen bay dizon pa mwen sou koze sa.

TiDodo, greetings! In one of your posts, I believe you said Michel was partially right when he said that Neptune was released because of health reasons. I beg to disagree. If that was the case, Neptune would have been released a long tine ago. You will remember that Latortue said he had "tried" to have him released at the height of his hunger strike, but Neptune had refused, preferring to die rather than be freed in those conditions. Neptune was released because 1) his brilliant lawyer Mario Joseph had effectively proven that the accusations had been fabricated and that Neptune did not have anything to do with the killing; 2) even the OAS Human Rights Commission had, after investigation, shown that Neptune had been unjustly imprisoned; 3) international organizations had clearly stated that Neptune was a political prisoner; 4) this case had become an embarrassment for the present democratically elected Govt. I know for a fact that while in prison, many of Neptune's closest friends tried to persuade him to accept Latortue's offer to leave for humanitarian reasons, because no one wanted to see him die there. He steadfastly refused, insisting that he was innocent and that it was up to the court and the justice system to legally release him. Thanks to relentless legal pressure, Lawyer Mario Joseph's efforts finally succeeded. I agree that the death of the Judge seems highly suspicious, but until there is more information, we have no choice but to wait (hopefully) for the results of the....investigation into this accident.....

Michel, mwen li tout sa w ekri a. Fòk mwen di w mwen kwè ou gen yon konfizyon ou fè e mwen panko konen si ou fè sa ak tout entansyon w, oubyen si se konen ou pa konen.

Pou koumanse ou kesyone Guy sou moun ki mouri Nan La Scierie. Wi, gen moun ki mouri la, men ou pa kapab, lè Guy poste nouvèl sou liberasyon Neptune lan, vin poze kesyon sa konsa, lè wap sijere, san prèv, ke se Neptune ki te reskonsab. Ou di te gen akizasyon kont li. Eske se akizasyon nan bouch, nan lari a , oubyen eske se akizasyon yon tribinal? Tanpri fè mwen konen. Mem si se te akizasyon yon tribinal, dapre Konstitisyon an, nan 48 lé, se pou Neptune te parèt devan jij li. Misye pase de lane nan prizon. Kididonk, Michel, lè wap pale de moun La Scierie, fòk ou kone sa wap di. Plizyè envestigasyon fèt, pèson, moun andedan peyi a tankou etranje, jwen ke pat gen oken prèv ki montre se Neptune ki te koupab. Li byen sa mwen ekri a wi, pou pa vin defòme sa map di a. Mwen pa di pa gen moun ki mouri nan La Scierie, mwen di ankèt yo montre Neptune pat gen anyen pou wè nan moun ki pèdi lavi yo. Kididonk, Neptune pat fèt pou rete nan prizon, amwenske te gen rezon politik ki fè yo te kenbe li, tankou gen anpil lòt prizonye politik ki nan prizon toujou, yon gwo anbara pou Gvt. ki la koulye a.

Nan youn nan mesaj ou yo, ou di sila:

An konklisyon Guy, Frantz, TiDodo, e tout lot kamarad kap souiv tout evenman politik e jeu de force sa yo sou echikye peyi d'Ayiti, bagay sa yo pa gen anyen pou we avek jistis sosyal pou malere ki mouri yo! Se yon kestyon de lajan e pouvwa politik

Komantè sa pa gen anyen pou wè ak sa ki ap diskite a. Mwen pap rete sou li, paske Tidodo deja ba w repons lan. Men Michel, ou gen twò lontan sou fowòm lan pou ap ekri de bagay konsa. Li lè pou sispan voye monte a, kom si ou te konen koman tout bagay yo pase . Se konsa li lè pou sispan itilize yon seri mo ki kalifye tankou "voye monte". Map souliyen kèk ladan yo nan pati mesaj ou sa: :

[quote] Neg yo tande ke gen anpil lajan kap antre nan peyi a.
Kidonk yap fe anpil presyon sou Preval/Alexis pou lajan, e reparasyon.
Mesye avoka Lavalas sanble ke yo pare pou yo fe anpil presyon sou govenman Preval/Alexis e pare pou trinnin gouvenman Preval/Alexis a pou reparasyon e domaj ke govenman LaTortue a te fe Neptune e tout lot prisonye Lavalas yo.

Govenman di ke li pap bay 5 kob reparasyon ou byen dedomajman a peson. Li pito rele tout jij leta e prosekite ki okouran de dossier sa yo e reouvri tout dossier prisonye yo e rele tout jij ki konsene sou zafe sila.

Aparanan, Jij St. Pierre elimine, lot jij yo e anpil temouwen menm pe kou sourit pou yo pa mouri tout[/quote]

Eske ou moun nan gouvènman sa di w sa? Ki sous enfòmasyon an? Kilès ki 'nèg" yo, "yap" elatriye? Nou pa ti moun so fowòm, ou paka pale koze sa yo konsa epi pou panse nap vale yo san poze kesyon.

Si se konsa ou panse zafè Neptune lan, ou pa konpran ditou sa Avoka Mario Joseph ap eseye fè nan yon peyi kote sistèm jistis chaje, chaje ak pwoblèm. Si se ak tout entansyon ou prezante pwoblèm lan konsa, monchè, pèmèt mwen di w se pa serye. Ou gen ase enfòmasyon nan men w, ou gen ase konpran pou pa vin chache mele, jan yo di nan lang angle a "apples and oranges".

De pwa de mezi. Wi, mwen dakò ak Guy. Gen de pwa de mezi lè Neptune pase de lane nan prizon pandan Chamblain ap sikile nan lari san pwoblèm, pandan Toto Constant panko nan prizon an Ayiti...

Youn nan chèf gang yo fèk arete fè gwo deklarasyon lòt jou lè li di li te kon resevwa $5000 pa semen nan men gwo endistriyèl, san li pa site non. Anne Marie Issa ki te nan chanm Komès, di ke se poutèt sa li te bay demisyon li. Sa sa vle di? Eske gouvènman pwal fè ankèt? Eske chèf gang sa pwal koumanse vide enfòmasyon atè? Men ki kote pou nou gade pou wè si gen de pwa de mezi. Mwen ta swete gen bon jan ankèt ki fèt sou deckarasyon sa yo epi pou la jistis koumanse al dèyè kèk moun nan sektè ki toujou ap chache mete tout bagay sou do ti piti yo, sa ki pa gen kòb yo, ki pa gen mwayen, jan Mario Joseph di. Mwen pwal poste yon bon rale Mario Joseph te fè nan Haiti Action. Li ta bon pou li li, sa ta kapab ba w yon lòt pèspektiv bagay yo.


Serge

Michel Nau
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Post by Michel Nau » Tue May 01, 2007 5:53 pm

Tidodo wrote: [quote]Michel, your choice of adjective in, "jistis sosyal," is puzzling to me. Guy, Frantz and I fight for it all the times on this forum. You always seem to be on the opposite side of us when we are fighting for social justice.[/quote] Tidodo, you may have a pervasive perception that I am always in the opposite side of you guys when it comes to social justice. I am with you, and I have your back.
We are fighting for the same cause but with different weapon.
Serge wrote: [quote]Neptune was released because:
1) his brilliant lawyer Mario Joseph had effectively proven that the accusations had been fabricated and that Neptune did not have anything to do with the killing;
2) even the OAS Human Rights Commission had, after investigation, shown that Neptune had been unjustly imprisoned;
3) international organizations had clearly stated that Neptune was a political prisoner;
4) this case had become an embarrassment for the present democratically elected Govt.[/quote]
Serge, since the beginning of this ordeal, I have said that Prime Minister Yvon Neptune was a person of interest. He was not a prisoner but rather a “detainee”. He had all the amenities those others prisoners did not have.
So therefore he wasn't released because of his brilliant legal representation. They used him for their purpose and collaborated more than what they were expected from a high ranking Lavalasien.
Serge wrote: [quote]Thanks to relentless legal pressure, Lawyer Mario Joseph's efforts finally succeeded. [/quote] Tou dun kou, se yon Sin Mario Joseph prye pou nou kap fe sifas kont yon govenman demokratik!!
Ki yes ki chwazi mesye kom legal representatsyon pou fe yon class aksyon suit pou prizonye politik yo ?

Eske w kap konte sou dis dwet w, konbyen prizonye politik ke mesye represente ?
Kom w konnin deja gen anpil moun ke yo arete pou koripsyon, vol, e pou anpil move zak kriminel, e moun sa yo vle foure ko yo sou la banye politik.

An konklusyon, opinyon pa mwen se ke, plint ki te pese sou tet Neptune nan se paran viktim yo ki te pote plint devan tribinal.
mesye yo ap plinyen, e fe rechinya ke Preval/Alexis ba bay yon gran inpotans a prisonye « politik » yo e yap mande reparasyon moneter, ou byen pozisyon politik nan govenman Preval/Alexis a.
Govenman demokratik sa pafet pou efondre sou presyon mesye sa yo.
Depi a lavans, ekip Preval la te rale ko li sou Lavalas e paret sou labanye ESPWA, ou HOPE e yo genyen.

Itilize Neptune e tout lot prizonye "politik" yo kom bargainning cheaps, se viktimize malere sa yo yon dezyem fwa anko.

Michel

Serge
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Post by Serge » Tue May 01, 2007 8:41 pm

Michel,
Mwen konpran ou te sispan fè kout volan nan la ri a wi, men mwen te nan lerè. Antouka, mwen pa konen si wap jwen anpil lespas pou fè kout volan sa yo. Depi ki lè ou te di Neptune, se te yon "person of interest"? Pou pa di ke map chache defòme panse w, men ki tradiksyon diksyonè Oxford Franse-Angle a bay pou mo "detainee".
detainee noun (general) détenu/-e m/f; (political)
prisonnier/-ière m/f (politique).

Kididonk, kout volan wap eseye fè a, gen lè ou pran koub la mal, machin ou an antre nan poto a.

Mwen pap pase twòp tan nan rale menen vini avèk ou sou koze sa, ou konen dosye sa byen e mwen pa gen anyen pou mwen apran ou sou li. Gen yon bagay mwen ta renmen ensiste sou li.

Se pa mwen ki pwal fè reklam pou Avoka Mario Joseph. Sa ta etone mwen anpil ke ou pa janm tande pale de misye ki gen lontan lap milite nan koze dwa moun nan peyi Dayiti. Li pa "Sin (sic) Mario Joseph", li se sèlman yon bon jan avoka ki kon travay li, ke moun respekte andedan tankou deyò peyi a, ki resevwa kont envitasyon poul vin pale sou koze dwa moun nan peyi Dayiti ak lòt bò dlo, e ki fè tèt li yon obligasyon pou wè si sistèm jistis nan peyi Dayiti ta respekte dwa mou e ta sispan gen prizonye politik. - Mwen envite w ankò al li gwo rale li te fè ak yon jounalis e ke mwen poste sou fowòm lan - . Pami lòt prizonye politik li goumen pou yo (menm si ou pa vle admèt gen nèg se pou rezon politik gouvènman de fakto a te arete yo), gen Pè Jean-Juste, gen anseyn Depie Amanus Maett(eskize òtograf la, mwen pa fin twò si konsa non li ekri), Yvon Neptune, 2 ou 3 mizisyen yo te arete tou sou rejim de fakto a (mwen pa sonje non koulye pandan map ekri a). e moun sa yo, se moun ki gen non; gen anpil lòt nou pa konen. Mwen sèten ou kapab jwen kilès, men mwen konen ou pap vin di nou lè ou ta jwen enfòmasyon an ...

Pu mwen di w la verite, Michel, mesaj ou a gen yon sant sinik ladan ki ban mwen pwoblèm. Ou byen konen se swadizan òganizasyon dwa moun Pierre Lesperance la (koulye a RDDH) ki, apre li resevwa yon don Gouvènman Kanada, monte yon lobèy sou do Neptune pou fè arete li. Dokimantasyon an la, ou ka verifye li.....si ou vle.

Jan mwen te di w nan lòt mesaj mwen, li lè pou sispan itilize vokabilè voye monte yo :"mesye yo ap plinyen", yap mande reparasyon moneter Govenman demokratik sa pafet pou efondre sou presyon mesye sa yo.

Kididonk Michel, al fè devwa ou; al pran bon jan enfòmasyon. Sa pa difisil. Men tanpri, pa vin fè kout volan sou mwen la.


Serge

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